Do You Want To Know How To Train?

[[old] Xeno]

Hi<br />Yes it is true that most people do not have access to a lactate testing machine. However the device has gotten a LOT cheaper ( $10000 to $500) now that the entire device fits in the palm of the hand.<br /><br />True too, people who train more volume will benefit more from knowning exactly where the red heart rate line is. However it is also true that those who train less because of heavy work load or other tend to train too hard and would benefit too from knowing the red line.<br /><br />At the end, if you look to become generally fit, then train for longer duration and be capable to speak a simple conversation. Train harder every third or fourth workout opportunity.<br /><br />NOW, IF you are somebody who cares about personal bests and rankings etc. Knowing your aerobic threshold is a MUST. At the present time it is the only way to train to improve stamina to ones personal "natural" limit.<br /><br />I hope this clarifies everything.<br /><br />XENO<br />

[[old] Xeno]

.double entry...

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 5 2005, 07:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 5 2005, 07:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope this clarifies everything. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yea it clarifies everything. <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 5 2005, 10:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 5 2005, 10:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Such testing has long been used with runners, and found to not be all that useful for training purposes.<br /><br />To the contrary, it is often misinterpreted. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Subsequently proven in this thread -- it didn't take long! <br />

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-Pete Marston+Jul 5 2005, 02:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Pete Marston @ Jul 5 2005, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really know anything about training by lactate levels. I've read various discussions and points of view before though. Surely the level of blood lactate you can tolerate is as individual as the HR you can row at for a certain length of time? So telling someone to row say at 2mmol for 60mins as the best way to do an aerobic workout is as pointless as telling someone to row at 150 HR, or even 80% max HR? If someone can comfortably row at 2.5mmol (or whatever) for that same 60min workout, is that not better? And therefore is a perceived exersion measure not better than lactate levels? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Pete,<br /><br />Taking an arbitrary lactate level an training at it does not take into consideration the athlete's ability to rid the body of lactate. OBLA is a good determination of where to limit training to avoid overtraining. You would have to complete a stepped rate lactate profile to understand the general lactate curve. Many trained athletes can maintain 30min, 60min, or more at percentages over threshold. In this case, percieved exersion would not avoid overtraining. Although, going through lactate profiling will tell you about how you will feel at LT. Without doing lactate testing, you could use morning resting heart rate or an orthostatic test to monitor overtraining.<br /><br />I did do a stepped lactate profile/VO2max about 3 months ago. I do not have a lactate tester at home to do ongoing tests. My OBLA is around 2.2-2.3 mmol @ 80% VO2max @ 86% HRmax. I am using this as a starting point and will retest again in the fall to see what kind of improvement I have made. I don't do enough hours of training for overtraining to be an issue most of the time. I am using this to help identify where to do the most effective aerobic training pace.<br /><br />Steve

[[old] Nick Rockliff]

By having a blood lactate profile you identify two important training points;<br /><br />1. LT your Lactate Threshold, this is the point where lactate levels in the blood start to increase compared to resting values. This point is usually about 2 mmol/l and the HR at this point is what would be used as the lower end of aerobic training UT2.<br /><br />2. The next point is your AT Anaerobic Threshold, this is the point where lactate levels in the blood have increased to a level where you are changing from aerobic to anaerobic and is usually about 4 mmol/l again the HR at this stage is the top end for aerobic training.<br /><br />The whole idea is to train aerobically within these values. I had a step test in March and started training within the zones it identified at the start of April. Over the three month period of training between 7 and 11 sessions a week the pace of both UT2 and UT1 I was able to train at have become lower for the same HR values.<br /><br />I have just had a re-test; the results confirm that my lactate levels have all moved along one step and even had to add a further step to confirm the results.<br /><br />I would recommend that for anyone who wants to train seriously by HR goes and gets a blood lactate profile step test.

[[old] michael]

<!--QuoteBegin-Stevo+Jul 2 2005, 04:32 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Stevo @ Jul 2 2005, 04:32 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He He He....this is all too funny.<br /><br />and yet strange.......a negative word from JR prompts all and sundry to rush and buy the book...?<br /><br />Maybe if you had said it 'rocked', John, they would have thought twice about picking it up... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm not sure about anyone else, but I didn't purchase the book simply because John opined that it lacked merit on "training to row faster". Rather, I bought because it was highly recommended by Xeno and it was reasonably priced. <br /><br />Adding to that, the Forth Worth public library system does not stock "Rowing Faster" and I've been wanting a book that only covers the sport of rowing on water from a training/fitness perspective, but also discusses and legitimizes erging as the great fitness activity that it is. And maybe I can even use it to stop my snobby cycling "friends" from dissing me...

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-michael+Jul 6 2005, 08:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Jul 6 2005, 08:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And maybe I can even use it to stop my snobby cycling "friends" from dissing me... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />How, by rolling it up and smacking them on the nose?

[[old] michael]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jul 6 2005, 11:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jul 6 2005, 11:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-michael+Jul 6 2005, 08:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Jul 6 2005, 08:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And maybe I can even use it to stop my snobby cycling "friends" from dissing me... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />How, by rolling it up and smacking them on the nose? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, now that you suggest it...

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-Steve_R+Jul 6 2005, 07:26 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steve_R @ Jul 6 2005, 07:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Pete Marston+Jul 5 2005, 02:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Pete Marston @ Jul 5 2005, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really know anything about training by lactate levels. I've read various discussions and points of view before though. Surely the level of blood lactate you can tolerate is as individual as the HR you can row at for a certain length of time? So telling someone to row say at 2mmol for 60mins as the best way to do an aerobic workout is as pointless as telling someone to row at 150 HR, or even 80% max HR? If someone can comfortably row at 2.5mmol (or whatever) for that same 60min workout, is that not better? And therefore is a perceived exersion measure not better than lactate levels? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Pete,<br /><br />Taking an arbitrary lactate level an training at it does not take into consideration the athlete's ability to rid the body of lactate. OBLA is a good determination of where to limit training to avoid overtraining. You would have to complete a stepped rate lactate profile to understand the general lactate curve. Many trained athletes can maintain 30min, 60min, or more at percentages over threshold. In this case, percieved exersion would not avoid overtraining. Although, going through lactate profiling will tell you about how you will feel at LT. Without doing lactate testing, you could use morning resting heart rate or an orthostatic test to monitor overtraining.<br /><br />I did do a stepped lactate profile/VO2max about 3 months ago. I do not have a lactate tester at home to do ongoing tests. My OBLA is around 2.2-2.3 mmol @ 80% VO2max @ 86% HRmax. I am using this as a starting point and will retest again in the fall to see what kind of improvement I have made. I don't do enough hours of training for overtraining to be an issue most of the time. I am using this to help identify where to do the most effective aerobic training pace.<br /><br />Steve <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Steve<br />How did you make the decision to get tested? Where did you hear about it and where did you have it done? Is there a website? <br />All the best,<br />XENO

[[old] sharp_rower]

"Monitoring blood lactate is an important tool for athletes in training, and portable analyzers give rapid results from a finger-prick blood, which enable practical analysis of blood lactate changes during training.<br /><br />Muscles use carbohydrates to provide energy for muscle movement, and in muscle cells the fuel can be used in two ways: aerobic (with oxygen) or anaerobic (without oxygen). <b>Lactate is formed when carbohydrate is used anaerobically for energy</b>, and when sufficient oxygen is available it is usually reconverted back to carbohydrate or used as a fuel itself. The aerobic pathway is limited in the amount of energy that it can supply, and the duration over which it supplies energy. It does not provide energy quickly enough to satisfy the demands of high-intensity exercise or prolonged muscle activity. <b>Muscles draw more heavily on the anaerobic pathway to support intensive or prolonged exercise, resulting in the production of a large amount of lactate</b>, which cannot be removed until the exercise is complete. <b>Elevated levels of blood lactate tend to lower blood pH with consequent disturbance of metabolism/protein structure, and beyond a tolerance level results in muscle fatigue or 'cramp'</b>.<br /><br /><b>Initially lactate concentrations rise slowly, but then increase sharply at a clearly-defined point, termed the lactate threshold, which corresponds to the shift in metabolism to anaerobic</b> within the muscle cells after exercise has begun. <b>At this point, lactate is being produced faster than it can be metabolised and it accumulates, passing into the blood.</b><br /><br />Resting levels of blood lactate are around 1 mM, and in top athletes the lactate threshold can be as much as 4mM, although there is considerable variation between individuals. The key to understanding and use of lactate metabolism is rapid blood assay, and this is now possible with portable analyzers. Studies show that athletes can perform more muscle work before lactate levels rise significantly, and that <b>training at or around the lactate threshold can shift the threshold to reduce the adverse affects of lactate.</b>"<br /><br />from <a href='http://www-biol.paisley.ac.uk/courses/s ... actate.htm' target='_blank'>http://www-biol.paisley.ac.uk/courses/s ... htm</a><br /><br />I hope the above is pretty accurate. It definitely makes sense to me. I wasn't exactly sure what all you guys were talking about.<br /><br />I'd say it must be pretty counterproductive though to obsess about precise lactate levels during every training session. I think a lot can be achieved by listening to your body when it tells you you're overdoing it, in addition to being patient and taking it a handful of seconds at a time (in terms of personal bests).<br /><br />Finally, if you are reading this Mr. Muller, I just want to thank you for being present on the forums. It is quite an honor not only to address you now but also to benefit from your knowledge and insights. Not that I know exactly what it's like, but I imagine it must have taken enormous amounts of work and personal investment to achieve what you have achieved (Olympic champion no less!!), so my sincere admiration goes out to you.

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-sharp_rower+Jul 8 2005, 04:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(sharp_rower @ Jul 8 2005, 04:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Monitoring blood lactate is an important tool for athletes in training, and portable analyzers give rapid results from a finger-prick blood, which enable practical analysis of blood lactate changes during training.<br /><br />Muscles use carbohydrates to provide energy for muscle movement, and in muscle cells the fuel can be used in two ways: aerobic (with oxygen) or anaerobic (without oxygen). <b>Lactate is formed when carbohydrate is used anaerobically for energy</b>, and when sufficient oxygen is available it is usually reconverted back to carbohydrate or used as a fuel itself. The aerobic pathway is limited in the amount of energy that it can supply, and the duration over which it supplies energy. It does not provide energy quickly enough to satisfy the demands of high-intensity exercise or prolonged muscle activity. <b>Muscles draw more heavily on the anaerobic pathway to support intensive or prolonged exercise, resulting in the production of a large amount of lactate</b>, which cannot be removed until the exercise is complete. <b>Elevated levels of blood lactate tend to lower blood pH with consequent disturbance of metabolism/protein structure, and beyond a tolerance level results in muscle fatigue or 'cramp'</b>.<br /><br /><b>Initially lactate concentrations rise slowly, but then increase sharply at a clearly-defined point, termed the lactate threshold, which corresponds to the shift in metabolism to anaerobic</b> within the muscle cells after exercise has begun. <b>At this point, lactate is being produced faster than it can be metabolised and it accumulates, passing into the blood.</b><br /><br />Resting levels of blood lactate are around 1 mM, and in top athletes the lactate threshold can be as much as 4mM, although there is considerable variation between individuals. The key to understanding and use of lactate metabolism is rapid blood assay, and this is now possible with portable analyzers. Studies show that athletes can perform more muscle work before lactate levels rise significantly, and that <b>training at or around the lactate threshold can shift the threshold to reduce the adverse affects of lactate.</b>"<br /><br />from <a href='http://www-biol.paisley.ac.uk/courses/s ... actate.htm' target='_blank'>http://www-biol.paisley.ac.uk/courses/s ... htm</a><br /><br />I hope the above is pretty accurate. It definitely makes sense to me. I wasn't exactly sure what all you guys were talking about.<br /><br />I'd say it must be pretty counterproductive though to obsess about precise lactate levels during every training session. I think a lot can be achieved by listening to your body when it tells you you're overdoing it, in addition to being patient and taking it a handful of seconds at a time (in terms of personal bests).<br /><br />Finally, if you are reading this Mr. Muller, I just want to thank you for being present on the forums. It is quite an honor not only to address you now but also to benefit from your knowledge and insights. Not that I know exactly what it's like, but I imagine it must have taken enormous amounts of work and personal investment to achieve what you have achieved (Olympic champion no less!!), so my sincere admiration goes out to you. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Sharp Rower<br />Thank you for your compliment.<br />I was lactate tested every two months. Of course over the years we had plenty of information. Xeno

[[old] Xeno]

Hi <br />I never had my finger pricked. We always used the ear lobe.<br />XENO

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi Steve<br />How did you make the decision to get tested?  Where did you hear about it and where did you have it done?  Is there a  website?  <br />All the best,<br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I had a stepped test done for VO2max because I wanted to test my fitness level. I had tested well so they suggested that I also do a lactate profile since I could benefit from better understanding my traning zones. I went back a couple weeks later and completed a stepped test lactate profile (ear lobe prick).<br /><br />I will retest later this year to see if my VO2max and lactate profile has changed. It is just a way for me to see how I am progressing. I am not genetically gifted in having an extremely large VO2max so my best chance of improvement is to work to shift my lactate threshold to a larger percentage of my VO2max.<br /><br />I got this done at the <a href='http://www.edb.utexas.edu/fit/assessments.htm' target='_blank'>Fitness Institute of Texas</a> @ UT Austin.<br /><br />Steve

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jul 3 2005, 08:51 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 3 2005, 08:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here's an idea ... "borrow" the book from the library, read it, and then post a review for all to see.  No dough expended, same result.  In fact, let's all get the book from our respective libraries, read it, review it, and then we'll have some statistically relevant data, by people who understand our sport, upon which to pass judgment.<br /><br />GO BUCKS!!!  BEAT MICHIGAN!!!  BEAT TEXAS!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />For once, I followed my own advice and borrowed the book from the Columbus Library System -- there are FOUR copies in circulation. I would surmise that most large city libraries will have it, or have it on order.<br /><br />I any event, this book appears to be the closest thing to a rower's bible that I have seen yet. Since almost every chapter is written by a different author, one gets many different viewpoints on lots of different topics.<br /><br />As an engineer, I appreciate the quantitative and scientific approach that most of the book takes on training, racing, coxing, you name it.<br /><br />I suggest you get a copy and read through it -- or skim it. Forget the Amazon reviews that are uncomplimentary. They're likely written by the person, and their friends and family, who now has the SECOND most popular book on rowing!<br /><br /> <br /><br />-- Mark