Rowing = Horizontal Deadlift ?

[Bill]

I recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.

I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.

[hjs]

I recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.

I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.

There is a crossover, a strong deadlift does correlate with a strong sprint. If you are not a midget.

But plenty of differences. Deadlift is low volume, rowing is high.
Deadlift is full extension, rowing far from, we don’t go horizontal.
And deadlift is non arm bending, weights are way to heavy.

[Gammmmo]

I recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.

I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.

It's not a bad analogy and something that's not occurred to me. I think they are sufficiently different for you not to worry about rowing though unless you're into sprinting and are prone to back injuries. Your signature suggests you're no stranger to rowing so even risk at longer pieces would likley be no issue for you. When I first started erging I could hurt my lower back just by trying hard on a 30min piece.

[btlifter]

I recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.

I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.

As somebody whose background is in powerlifting (of which the 'deadlift' represents 1/3 contested lifts) I've spent a lot of time thinking about the relationship between deadlifting and rowing. I'll regurgitate some of my disjointed thoughts below. But, they are aren't clear, and that's because I don't think the relationship between the two exercises is clear:

Anyway, here are the similarities/why it might be helpful to train the deadlift to improve at rowing - in order of relevance.
1. Both require a similar bracing of the core and torso to ensure that power is not forfeited and to protect the upper and lower spine. This is really important, and for this reason alone learning to deadlift well may be useful.
2. Similar musculature involved in both. Though rowing involves more muscles overall, and more heavily emphasizes quadriceps, there is a great deal of crossover. I would argue that developing one's deadlift from poor to a little above average is probably one of the faster ways of improving an erg time. Once one has developed much past an average level of competence (for example, 1.5x bodyweight, though this varies) there are certainly diminishing returns.
3. People who are built to be good at deadlifting (relative to other strength movements: e.g squats or cleans) are likely to be good at rowing (relative to other endurance exercises e.g. running or cycling) due to their anatomical similarities (long levers/ better leverage).

Here are the differences:
1.Row is NOT a horizontal deadlift. Though the musculature required is similar, the movement patterns are actually fairly distinct in at least two important ways:
- For most people, deadlifing requires that they focus on generating as much force as they can to overcome iniertia at the beginning of the movement. This is almost opposite to rowing where the intention is to accelerate throughout the movement. In this regard, a clean (more specifically, a "muscle clean") would much more closely approximate the force curve, I think.
- Similarly, the cue for rowing is "legs, torso, arms". For most people, trying to cue that way in a deadlift - due to the increased load - will result in hips shooting straight up, and leaving a person hunched over in a compromised position. Again, the clean much better approximates rowing in this regard.
2. Deadlifting is about trying to generate as much force as possible for a couple of seconds. Rowing requires sustaining force for a long time. This means that to row well, one must stay relaxed, which is again almost opposite to the nearly-full-body rigidity demanded to execute a deadlift.
2. Deadlifting is about looking for the most efficient way to move the bar as short of distance as possible. Rowing rewards a long stroke.

In summary:
Learning to deadlift well can probably be beneficial to most rowers, but is certainly not essential, and the suggestion that they are the same movement breaks down when examined closely.

[Nomath]

I don't know about deadlifts, so I leave that to others to comment.

I think the first stage of the drive phase has much in common with a two-legged horizontal jump.
What most rowers on a C2 don't realise is that you cannot apply force on the handle directly after the catch. The chain is connected to the flywheel via a clutch, comparable to the freewheel on a bicycle. Only if the rotation speed of the chain sprocket exceeds the rotation speed of the flywheel can we apply a force on the handle. Because arms are fully extended at the catch, we first have to accelerate our body to a speed matching the speed of the flywheel. This takes 10-25 cm of horizontal movement. In this period we only apply force on the foot stretchers to accelerate the body horizontally. It is hard to find data for the initial acceleration in the literature, but reasonable estimates range from 4 m/sec² for recreational rowers to >10 m/sec² for elite rowers. Note that it takes a minimum vertical acceleration of 10 m/sec² ('1G') to jump in the air.

This distance of zero power input, called catch slip (see figure below), depends of course on the initial acceleration and also on the drag factor. With a high drag factor setting the flywheel decelerates fast during the recovery and our body speed catches up after a short horizontal distance. With a low drag factor it takes longer to catch up on the flywheel speed. That is also what we feel after the catch : a high drag factor gives a quick handle response but at a low speed. At a low drag factor the slip catch is longer but the handle speed is higher.

I believe that the catch slip is not included in the drive length shown on the ErgData display. There is no way that the PM can measure our horizontal movement before we add power to the flywheel.



(Figure taken from the Thesis of Anders Vinther on Rib Stress Fractures in Elite Rowers, 2009. RFD = Rate of Force Development)

[Tony Cook]

Article on RowPerfect about the benefits of training with the deadlift for rowing.
https://www.rowperfect.co.uk/is-your-pe ... g-success/

[Bill]

Thanks very much for the informative replies. Some interesting things to think about and try in the above posts.

Bill

[gisborne]

I think that the "horizontal deadlift" comparison comes from the similar way in which you are gripping the handle/bar down near your feet. Other than that, it's not much like a deadlift at all. The handle is not over the middle of your feet like the bar is in a deadlift. Your knee angle is far more acute at the catch/floor than in a deadlift. You don't get full hip extension like in a deadlift.

In terms of muscles used I'd guess it is much more like a front squat. But that's not a good visual reference because of the handle position. In fact, there can't be a barbell/weight exercise that rowing mimics because any barbell is always lifted vertically from your center of mass and the rowing handles are no where near your horizontally flipped center of mass.

[bens_crazy]

I recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.



I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.

As somebody whose background is in powerlifting (of which the 'deadlift' represents 1/3 contested lifts) I've spent a lot of time thinking about the relationship between deadlifting and rowing. I'll regurgitate some of my disjointed thoughts below. But, they are aren't clear, and that's because I don't think the relationship between the two exercises is clear:



Anyway, here are the similarities/why it might be helpful to train the deadlift to improve at rowing - in order of relevance.

1. Both require a similar bracing of the core and torso to ensure that power is not forfeited and to protect the upper and lower spine. This is really important, and for this reason alone learning to deadlift well may be useful.

2. Similar musculature involved in both. Though rowing involves more muscles overall, and more heavily emphasizes quadriceps, there is a great deal of crossover. I would argue that developing one's deadlift from poor to a little above average is probably one of the faster ways of improving an erg time. Once one has developed much past an average level of competence (for example, 1.5x bodyweight, though this varies) there are certainly diminishing returns.

3. People who are built to be good at deadlifting (relative to other strength movements: e.g squats or cleans) are likely to be good at rowing (relative to other endurance exercises e.g. running or cycling) due to their anatomical similarities (long levers/ better leverage).



Here are the differences:

1.Row is NOT a horizontal deadlift. Though the musculature required is similar, the movement patterns are actually fairly distinct in at least two important ways:

- For most people, deadlifing requires that they focus on generating as much force as they can to overcome iniertia at the beginning of the movement. This is almost opposite to rowing where the intention is to accelerate throughout the movement. In this regard, a clean (more specifically, a "muscle clean") would much more closely approximate the force curve, I think.

- Similarly, the cue for rowing is "legs, torso, arms". For most people, trying to cue that way in a deadlift - due to the increased load - will result in hips shooting straight up, and leaving a person hunched over in a compromised position. Again, the clean much better approximates rowing in this regard.

2. Deadlifting is about trying to generate as much force as possible for a couple of seconds. Rowing requires sustaining force for a long time. This means that to row well, one must stay relaxed, which is again almost opposite to the nearly-full-body rigidity demanded to execute a deadlift.

2. Deadlifting is about looking for the most efficient way to move the bar as short of distance as possible. Rowing rewards a long stroke.



In summary:

Learning to deadlift well can probably be beneficial to most rowers, but is certainly not essential, and the suggestion that they are the same movement breaks down when examined closely.

Do you think the opposite also applies? Do you think rowing had helped your DLs?



I ask because my DLs are my strongest lift by a long margin (I am not a powerlifter by the way, but I like working on the 3 competitive lifts generally), and I think it is mostly due to my time spent on the rower. Same with auxiliaries - my bicep curls and low rows put the big boys in the gym to shame, only to rack up half as much when I get to the bench!



It may not be though, since I also have joint issues (shoulders and a knee) which out of the three the DL is the least affected.

[btlifter]

Do you think the opposite also applies? Do you think rowing had helped your DLs?



I ask because my DLs are my strongest lift by a long margin (I am not a powerlifter by the way, but I like working on the 3 competitive lifts generally), and I think it is mostly due to my time spent on the rower. Same with auxiliaries - my bicep curls and low rows put the big boys in the gym to shame, only to rack up half as much when I get to the bench!



It may not be though, since I also have joint issues (shoulders and a knee) which out of the three the DL is the least affected.

Well, rowing certainly hasn't helped MY deadlift - because I began rowing much after I had already deadlifted the heaviest that I will ever deadlift.

But no, in most cases I wouldn't think that rowing would increase the amount somebody could deadlift. There simply isn't enough maximum force produced during rowing efforts. I suppose if somebody primarily did 10 second sprints at max df there could be some carryover to deadlifts, but I wouldn't count on it. Alternatively, a well-trained powerlifter may improve their recovery-ability from rowing, thus allowing them to recover better from deadlifts. My point is, there are exceptions to every "rule". But generally, no.

Having said that, I would guess that most rowers are - comparatively - better at deadlifts than bench press or squats, simply from an anatomical perspective. The long levers that lend themselves well to pulling apply well to both the erg and the deadlift bar, while being a hindrance for knee-hinge or pressing movements.

[jamesg]

This seems to be a deadlift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op9kVnSso6Q

Reminds me of doing the shopping for the wife, so first impression was unfavorable. However, similarities with rowing seem to be that it's done with the both hands and both legs together, like sculling.

How many, how fast and what weight can no doubt be adjusted to taste, as in rowing. I usually pull about 400 strokes at force 35 kg, travel 1.2 m. Could be 400 DLs with no weight at all except me would be tougher than erging. Certainly wrong posture would be suicidal.

Very cheap equipment and only ourselves to break, no numbers to worry about, can be done anywhere... it has its pros.

[MartinSH4321]

...
Well, rowing certainly hasn't helped MY deadlift - because I began rowing much after I had already deadlifted the heaviest that I will ever deadlift.

But no, in most cases I wouldn't think that rowing would increase the amount somebody could deadlift. There simply isn't enough maximum force produced during rowing efforts. I suppose if somebody primarily did 10 second sprints at max df there could be some carryover to deadlifts, but I wouldn't count on it. Alternatively, a well-trained powerlifter may improve their recovery-ability from rowing, thus allowing them to recover better from deadlifts. My point is, there are exceptions to every "rule". But generally, no.

Having said that, I would guess that most rowers are - comparatively - better at deadlifts than bench press or squats, simply from an anatomical perspective. The long levers that lend themselves well to pulling apply well to both the erg and the deadlift bar, while being a hindrance for knee-hinge or pressing movements.

I totally agree that normal rowing won't help increasing DL.

From personal experience I think there are ways to train strength on the rower. When I quit my gym membership about 1.5 years ago I decided to try maintaining strength by doing 30'' intervals at 20spm, so 10 reps, all as hard as possible.
I haven't done real DL since leaving gym so I'm not sure how much weaker my DL is now, but I can do these 30'' intervals with about the same pace as 1.5 years ago and the back looks about as strong as before. Hopefully I'll soon get my power rack (due to COVID I'm waiting for 2 months now), then I'll test how much strength I've lost

[KeithT]

Like others I have a background in weightlifting and they seem to share my stance that it's really not that similar and while there is benefit to doing DLs I don't think it translates all that much. Despite longer arms and such I was always a decent BP guy compared to DLs and always struggled with lower back issues with heavy DLs no matter if form was good or not. I think its more important to just develop overall strength especially leg strength and it doesn't have to be with super heavy weight. My strength has gone down a decent amount from rowing much more than lifting now but my rowing times have continually improved.

[Nomath]

This seems to be a deadlift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op9kVnSso6Q

When I view this footage, speed doesn't seem to matter. In indoor rowing, after the catch, speed is of the essence. Each drive should start as an explosive horizontal movement. I venture that the initial body acceleration discriminates very accurately between elite rowers and recreational rowers. That's why the CounterMovement Jump has shown to be such a strong predictor of rowing performance.

[hjs]

This seems to be a deadlift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op9kVnSso6Q

When I view this footage, speed doesn't seem to matter. In indoor rowing after the catch, speed is of the essence. Each drive should start as an explosive horizontal movement. I venture that the initial body acceleration discriminates very accurately between elite rowers and recreational rowers. That's why the CounterMovement Jump has shown to be such a strong predictor of rowing performance.

Speed matters lots for deadlifts, a good deadlifter will be much more explosive than a good rower. Deadlifters are often good sprinters on the erg.
A max lift will be slow, its a single lift, of its not slow its not a close to max lift.