crepitus and bad knees, is rowing still okay?

[mishima]

Hello,
Until 3 years ago I never had any problems with knees (and I had been an active tennis/badminton/squash player my entire life). Then, during a tournament, I tore my ACL. A year later, got an ACL reconstruction. This is, where all my problems started. Since that surgery, I have never run for more than 2 meters or been without pain. Last year, I had to have another arthroscopic surgery. Both surgeries, it seems, set into motion processes in my knee which made matters only worse.

Currently: I am still unable to run, but now I am also unable to sit with a bent knee for more than 30 minutes. Sitting is generally very bad even though my work requires it (I work at a university, doing research). If I try to work behind a desk for a week or two, my knee hurts so bad that it annoys me even during sleep. Currently I do most of my work from a sofa with a computer on my lap..though long-term, this might probably not be good for my back either.

It seems that am suffering from chondromalacia and/or patellofemoral pain syndrome. A severe crepitus developed in my knee....the cartilage has been damaged.

I bought a new Concept 2, hoping that at least rowing would be something I could still do to keep in shape (bike and swimming are, due to winter weather and COVID, out of question).

But now I've read that rowing is in fact bad for someone with my kind of knees. Is this true?
Is anyone out there who has similar knee problems and is rowing regularly?

I am really desperate. Not being able to do any cardio sport, I am suffering mentally and physically. I am 183cm, 85kg but for the past 20 years my weight was around 78kg. I gained 7kg of fat in recent year due to my inability to properly exercise.

Any ideas about rowing or how to set it up so that i don't make my knee even worse? I'd like to row roughly 1 hour a day, say 4-5 times a week.

[robbiep]

The first part of the rowing stroke, the 'drive', you push with your legs, taking them from 90 degree bent (roughly) to straight. ALL that initial force is through the legs, which are then locked straight for the rest of the hip swivel and arms. Then you reverse (arms, hips, legs) back to the catch position, ready for the drive again

That's probably not the greatest thing to do 20+ times a minute if you've got damaged knee cartilage

However, you're far better off asking a specialist - your doctor should be able to recommend a physio, or maybe even a surgeon, who can give you a definitive answer

[mict450]

Possible solutions for you:

1. one-legged rowing. use only your good leg in the foot stretchers.

2. sell the rower & purchase the skierg. the skierg requires no knee flexion or extension.

[mishima]

Thank you for the replies...the one legged rowing is something I haven't thought of..but wouldn't that again cause dis-balance in the entire body?
Skierg is something I saw but I have never tried.

Before I bought the Concept 2, many people were saying that rowing is a good (lower impact)sport..and even for people with bad knees. But I guess "bad knees" means different things with different people?

I truly love the concept 2 rowing machine and was looking forward to using it...couldn't an adjustment of the stroke (say not going 90 degree..i.e. not so much bending) be okay?
The weird thing is that when I cycle (I did 4000km over the summer), it seemed that my knees were better. I.e. movement seems to be good for the knees, it's only when I tried to bike up some steeper hills when I felt it. I hoped that rowing could be the same...i.e. that it would allow me to do cardio and make my knees move, strengthen the muscles without pushing too much pressure on them.

[mict450]

First off, what's the recommendation of your orthopedic surgeon & physical therapists regarding using a rower with your degree of knee dysfunction, as robbie pointed out??

If they clear you, then try & see how you tolerate limited knee flexion. Start at the finish position & slide to the back 1/4 slide position & row for a while. Depending on the relative lengths of your femur vs tibia, knee angle should be about 135 degrees. If tolerated, increase ROM to 1/2 slide, which should bring you to about 90 degree knee position.

As for your weight gain, it's all about diet. Exercising makes us fit. Eating makes us fat. Exercising more so you can eat more is a slippery slope that will eventually lead to weight control failure. Ask me how I know.

[mishima]

First off, what's the recommendation of your orthopedic surgeon & physical therapists regarding using a rower with your degree of knee dysfunction, as robbie pointed out??

I can't tell you because I have not spoken to them about this yet. I also live in a system where consults of this sort (as strange as it might sound) are not that simple. Surgeons here operate but they are really very bad at communicating with patients afterwards,so you won't get much out of them. And as for a physical therapist, I've had a few of them...and everybody was saying something different.
The bottom line is, nobody was much of a help. In fact, had I not done the surgery in the first place I would be surely not posting here. As I suggested in my original post, the problems started with the surgery.


To make it short at the end of the day I really have to rely on my own judgement (what my body tells me and what I learn by reading literature and asking around). I simply don't have the options that some of you consider to be "common" or "normal".

[mict450]

Okay, understood. Proceed with caution on the rower.

Another option is using a turbo trainer with your bike, since the biking motion seemed to help your knee.

[mishima]

Thank you, I will.
Btw. you live in a beautiful part of the world - shasta county in particular. For grad school I went to Cal so I've been around there.

[Ombrax]

Mishima,

I used to cycle a lot, and also row a bit. Lately I've been changing over to a lot more rowing. My situation is most likely different from yours, but In general I've found that cycling is harder on my knees than rowing.

I'd suggest four possible approaches:

1) See what your doctors or physical therapists think about you rowing. If they allow you to ride a bike, then I'd think that they wouldn't have problems with you rowing.

2) Row, but take it easy, especially at first. Be sure you get your technique straight. (there's lots of information on this on the C2 web site) Your knees will let you know if you're doing additional damage to them. As my orthopedic surgeons have told me in the past, "listen to your body."

3) Consider the C2 SkiErg. I've never used one, but they can be used with you seated, and totally avoid loading up your knees. Not as good a workout as doing it standing, but still a workout.

4) If all else fails, consider swimming for your cardio.

Good Luck

[Tony Cook]

Sounds like my knees. I was first diagnosed with chondromalacia over 20 years ago and had an operation to stimulate growth of cartilage, or maybe scar tissue to replace the missing cartilage. Was out of action for 8 Months then got back into training and was able to play my first sport (rugby) competitively for another 8 years. Eased off the rugby and took up Rowing - fixed seat traditional boats as no impact on the knees. Stupidly also started to play tennis. Did a reasonable amount of walking as well but suffered more and more as time went on. Defining moment in 2019 when walking across the Brecon Beacons I could only walk downhill by going backwards. More severe swelling, locking followed and eventually another operation in March 2020.
I still suffer walking down hill. Will not run or play rugby or tennis again. Used the erg as my self physio, initially to get back to full range of movement and then build the strength back.
My typical obsessive self took over and 2.5 million metres later I’m on the erg six days a week.
My knees still hurt walking down hill, I can’t sit for more than 45 mins without having to move. When rowing I have to start slowly and have a good warmup to get my knees ‘oiled’ but once I’m warmed up I can row without pain. Sometimes I feel them the day after an intense sprint session but other than that I think erging is the best thing I can do for my old knees.
Then again, we are not all the same.

[mishima]

@Ombrax,
thank you for the reply.
Yeah, strangely enough, cycling seems to agree with my knee. I mean when i started after the second surgery, I did feel pain. Then I got used to that motion and could easily do 30-40km in 1,5 hours on my mountain bike and it felt it was in fact helping my knee. That was this summer. Now the winter came and my knee is not doing well.
I do a lot of swimming too - trouble is that Covid has shut it down for me.
I think I'll give rowing a real shot - my thinking is to put the dampener on a low setting (say 2) and put my feet up high, so that i don't flex the knee so much.
Others suggested Skierg but having done a bit more research, I am not sure I'd enjoy that kind of exercise as much.
i am also thinking of an elliptical machine, supposedly that should be easy on the knees.

[mishima]

Tony,
thanks for sharing, I wish I could get to that level where you are at..but in my case, it's been three years since the sport injury and 2 years since the first surgery, my knee is getting worse or definitely not better.
i do not have any hope for running or doing my sports again. I wish though I could at least do the rowing, swimming, cycling and working without pain.
What sucks is that i am only 41.

[Nomath]

I cannot comment on whether rowing is OK for you.
If so, I suggest to use the C2 on slides. This significantly lowers the peak power on the knee and the knee moments. I believe you can freely download the article The Effect of Ergometer Design on Rowing Stroke Mechanics, by A.J. Greene and others in the Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports (2011). Look at Fig. 3 and 4 for differences on a static C2, a C2 on slides and on a RowPerfect.

[btlifter]

Hello,
Until 3 years ago I never had any problems with knees (and I had been an active tennis/badminton/squash player my entire life). Then, during a tournament, I tore my ACL. A year later, got an ACL reconstruction. This is, where all my problems started. Since that surgery, I have never run for more than 2 meters or been without pain. Last year, I had to have another arthroscopic surgery. Both surgeries, it seems, set into motion processes in my knee which made matters only worse.

Currently: I am still unable to run, but now I am also unable to sit with a bent knee for more than 30 minutes. Sitting is generally very bad even though my work requires it (I work at a university, doing research). If I try to work behind a desk for a week or two, my knee hurts so bad that it annoys me even during sleep. Currently I do most of my work from a sofa with a computer on my lap..though long-term, this might probably not be good for my back either.

It seems that am suffering from chondromalacia and/or patellofemoral pain syndrome. A severe crepitus developed in my knee....the cartilage has been damaged.

I bought a new Concept 2, hoping that at least rowing would be something I could still do to keep in shape (bike and swimming are, due to winter weather and COVID, out of question).

But now I've read that rowing is in fact bad for someone with my kind of knees. Is this true?
Is anyone out there who has similar knee problems and is rowing regularly?

I am really desperate. Not being able to do any cardio sport, I am suffering mentally and physically. I am 183cm, 85kg but for the past 20 years my weight was around 78kg. I gained 7kg of fat in recent year due to my inability to properly exercise.

Any ideas about rowing or how to set it up so that i don't make my knee even worse? I'd like to row roughly 1 hour a day, say 4-5 times a week.

5 quick thoughts:

1. (And this is most important) I'm not a knee specialist. Nobody here is - and even if they are, they aren't YOUR knee specialist. So, take anything anybody (especially me) says with a grain of salt. If you are unable to receive appropriate guidance from a professional, your own body is usually the best guide.
2. Typically, the biggest impact on joints occurs during the eccentric (lowering) and reversal of load. With the rower, there is very little load during these phases; this should dramatically reduce the amount of force the joint is exposed to.
3. You mentioned foot placement. This is relevant, but I may have misunderstood what you wrote - the higher my feet are the more knee flexion I experience. More importantly, the more my quadriceps (and knees) are loaded; the lower my feet are the more load is in my posterior chain (hamstrings and hips).
4. I would argue that you can absolutely play with the stroke a little bit. By not bending your knees as far (either by shortening your stroke, or by reaching more with your torso (of course, be mindful of additional strain on your lower back if doing this) you will decrease the amount of force your knees are exposed to. This would likely be ill-advised if your aim was to become a competitive rower. Assuming that's not the case, I don't see an issue (with possible exception of increased load on your lower back).
5. Good on you for not just giving in to being sedentary!

[jamesg]

Any ideas about rowing or how to set it up so that i don't make my knee even worse? I'd like to row roughly 1 hour a day, say 4-5 times a week.

Backstop rowing could be worth a try. Swing and pull can get you to 100W easily; more if you can add a short leg action. Similar to Paralympic rowing, there are erg events like this (PR2).