Steady State ????

[[old] allapologies916]

Alright... so, everyone knows that steady state is a level of intensity while working out... I have heard so much about steady state, and heard from different coach's and people what their idea of steady state rowing is... <br /><br /><br />What percentage of pressure would you say steady state is? <br /><br /><br />What heart rate would you say to be at? <br /><br /><br />Is it true that it's the pressure that you could do forever?<br /><br />Should I be breathing hard during steady state?<br /><br />Thanks for the help

[[old] jamesg]

Steady state is just another name for UT2 and UT1, maybe even AT. This is the UK ARA Gold Standard method of defining these bands, seen in a now ancient post by Mel Harbour:<br /><br />Band | %HRR | Lactate (mmol/l) | Rate | % Gold Time<br />UT2. | 59-67 | <2.0 ...... ...... | 17-18 | .... 70-76<br />UT1 . | 67-75 | 2.0-4.0 ......... | 19-23 | .... 77-82<br />AT ....| 75-85 | ~4.0 ............ | 24-28 | .... 82-86.<br /><br />By definition any power level below the anaerobic threshold is aerobic and so can be done as steady state, if we try hard enough. Presumably the whole idea of training is to be able to maintain ever higher steady state power levels, or same level for longer time, and 95% of training is steady state UT2 and 1.<br /><br />The Interactive says that at UT1 we "may sweat"; by extension no doubt we may breathe hard too if we so wish. <br /><br />I reckon Gold Standard Time is 1:30 on the erg: the erg is said to have gearing like a 4- and a 6' 2k in a 4- would be not bad at all.<br /><br />So from the above numbers, steady state is anywhere from rating 17 and pace 2.09 to 1.45 @28. No doubt we can correct the paces as to age weight and sex.<br /><br />In Watts, fastest UT1 comes out at about 270W, or 2.8 W/kg considering 95 kg, and fastest AT 305W. Using Watts makes the weight correction easy.<br /><br />Note the correlation and indeed linearity between power levels and ratings.

[[old] Xeno]

Hi <br />If you don't have access to a lactate pro, lactate analyser, to determine your 2mmol-aerobic threshold heart rate, you can try the Karvonen target heart rate formula:<br /><br />[(MAX heart rate minus REST heart rate)X80%]+REST heart rate= Aerobic Threshold Heart Rate.<br /><br />This is a ball park solution. Of course you need to check your rest heart rate more than once and you will have to pull shorter max efforts to determine what your max heart rate is.<br /><br />My steady state stroke rate would vary between 19 and 21 strokes per minute. I would sweat ENORMOUSLY. The greater your aerobic capacity is the more you exhale CO2 and Sweat H2O.<br />I hope this is helping in the right direction.<br /><br />All the best, and I hope you are having a nice weekend.<br />XENO

[[old] Ralph Earle]

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Jul 1 2005, 12:56 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Jul 1 2005, 12:56 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Steady state is just another name for UT2 and UT1, maybe even AT. This is the UK ARA Gold Standard method of defining these bands, seen in a now ancient post by Mel Harbour:<br /><br />Band | %HRR  | Lactate (mmol/l) | Rate  | % Gold Time<br />UT2.  | 59-67 | <2.0    ......    ......    | 17-18 | .... 70-76<br />UT1 . | 67-75 | 2.0-4.0    .........    | 19-23 | .... 77-82<br />AT  ....| 75-85 | ~4.0          ............  | 24-28 | .... 82-86. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />How do you see rate entering into this? Suppose that to hit the UT2 % Gold Time paces I have to rate 20spm instead of 17-18spm, but my %HRR remains within the 59-67 range.<br /><br />From the standpoint of heart rate and meters/heartbeat, rating would be of no consequence. Yet, I would be fitter/stronger if I could do it at a lower rating, right?<br /><br />Also, how long to you think one has to be able to maintain one of these steady states for the % Gold Time to be a valid indicator of 2K ability? <br /><br />For example, the BIRC record for 65-69 lightweight men is @1:47.5. The high end of UT1 is 82% of Gold Time, or @2:11.1. That's just about my AT pace, judging from Mel Harbour's 30min|20spm criterion.<br /><br />But even though I can do @2:11|20spm for 30 minutes, I can't come within 10s of Gold Time pace, because I can't do it at the target %HRR .<br /><br />Given the usual relationship between distance and pace, it would seem that for these bands to indicate 2K ability, the paces really do have to be "forever" -- at least a marathon at the %HRR pace.

[[old] allapologies916]

thank you all for the replies, it has set me in the right direction... <br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 2 2005, 12:21 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 2 2005, 12:21 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi <br />If you don't have access to a lactate pro, lactate analyser, to determine your 2mmol-aerobic threshold heart rate, you can try the Karvonen target heart rate formula:<br /><br />[(MAX heart rate minus REST heart rate)X80%]+REST heart rate= Aerobic Threshold Heart Rate.<br /><br />This is a ball park solution.  Of course you need to check your rest heart rate more than once and you will have to pull shorter max efforts to determine what your max heart rate is.<br /><br />My steady state stroke rate would vary between 19 and 21 strokes per minute.  I would sweat ENORMOUSLY.  The greater your aerobic capacity is the more you exhale CO2 and Sweat H2O.<br />I hope this is helping in the right direction.<br /><br />All the best, and I hope you are having a nice weekend.<br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />So being in better shape causes someone to sweat more?

[[old] jamesg]

RE<br />I don't think you can use a work-out as an indication of 2k speed, especially with the GS method. The w/o is to be done for training and that's that. It's the effect that counts. Maybe the HR reached could be indicative of our current fitness, which is what we want to change.<br /><br />The GS logic is the inverse of IA logic; in GS we train at rates that are linked to a fixed standard needed to get Gold; in IA according to our last test. My personal extension of GS is that on the erg it's weight that counts, so I adjust in proportion.<br /><br />I considered a Gold Medallist as being 95 kg, 195cm and winning at 90s pace. Combining this hypothesis with the GS Table data leads to 2.2 W/kg for fastest UT2 and 2.8 for UT1. <br /><br />This identifies my band Watt rates immediately, according to my weight. For rating we can adjust for height. <br /><br />These mathematical models of course have their limits. However as the UT1 and 2 piece lengths as normally described (IA for example) are aerobic and not very long, we reach neither a CV nor an out-of-fuel limit.<br /><br />AA<br />Getting fit lets you work harder and/or longer. If you do, you sweat more, because the body needs more cooling.

[[old] Mel Harbour]

No, you've misunderstood. You don't train at any given pace. You train at the right rate/physiological intensity and then keep an eye on the % of your target time that you're rowing at. So when you start, your percentages might well below your target, but as you improve, you'll gradually increase the percentages of gold standard that you're moving at when rowing at a given intensity. As each percentage reaches the correct range, you know you're in the right state for the time that you're targetting.<br /><br />Mel

[[old] neilb]

[/quote]<br /><br /><br />So being in better shape causes someone to sweat more? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Being fitter either means you can perform to the same level with less exertion/effort or that same exertion/effort gives higher performance.<br /><br />With the former less effort means you should sweat less, with the latter you are generating more effort andf hence more heat produced so you sweat more.<br /><br />What is missing from Xeno's comment, and it would be very informative, is what the output actually was. His fitness level would mean that even at 19 - 21 spm steady state he would be producing a lot of watts (low splits) and hence generating lots of heat that needs to be dealt with.<br /><br />Neil<br /><br />

[[old] jamesg]

MH,<br />I like your comment as it makes things a bit easier for me: I can watch the HR and not worry (not that I do) about pace. However I think most of us decide a certain pace and then do it, whatever, hoping the HR will drop one day. Talking only about UT1 and 2, does it make much difference?<br /><br />Controlling HR and then observing pace and comparing this to a reference in any case needs the reference; and as an Olympic HW 4- time is a bit far out, even applying those percentages, I thought I'd adjust for weight at least. Then I can imagine that albeit at training levels only, I do what a Gold medallist does...<br /><br />

[[old] Mel Harbour]

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Jul 4 2005, 08:36 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Jul 4 2005, 08:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MH,<br />I like your comment as it makes things a bit easier for me: I can watch the HR and not worry (not that I do) about pace. However I think most of us decide a certain pace and then do it, whatever, hoping the HR will drop one day. Talking only about UT1 and 2, does it make much difference?<br /><br />Controlling HR and then observing pace and comparing this to a reference in any case needs the reference; and as an Olympic HW 4- time is a bit far out, even applying those percentages, I thought I'd adjust for weight at least. Then I can imagine that albeit at training levels only, I do what a Gold medallist does... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, it does make a difference. UT1 is defined in terms of the anaerobic threshold. If you try and row at a higher percentage than you are physiologically adapted for at the present time, you will have a different training effect. If for example you're doing a UT2 session (70-90 minutes r18 with appropriate heart rate), you should set off at a pace similar to one you've held previously, then after 20-25 minutes adjust your pace to get the heart rate in the right range (it will take your heart rate that long to settle down), then note the pace you are rowing at and maintain that through to the end. Your heart rate will rise, but this is purely as a result of dehydration etc.<br /><br />The 'Gold Standard Time' is just whatever goal you have at the moment.<br /><br />Mel

[[old] Ralph Earle]

" ...If for example you're doing a UT2 session (70-90 minutes r18 with appropriate heart rate), you should set off at a pace similar to one you've held previously, then after 20-25 minutes adjust your pace to get the heart rate in the right range (it will take your heart rate that long to settle down), then note the pace you are rowing at and maintain that through to the end. Your heart rate will rise, but this is purely as a result of dehydration etc. "<br /><br />Mel, <br /><br />Under this plan, how long is a UT1 session? An AT session?<br /><br />For the purposes of estimating % Gold Time, would you use the average %HRR for these sessions?<br /><br />- Ralph

[[old] Xeno]

[quote=neilb,Jul 4 2005, 08:05 AM]<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />So being in better shape causes someone to sweat more? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Being fitter either means you can perform to the same level with less exertion/effort or that same exertion/effort gives higher performance.<br /><br />With the former less effort means you should sweat less, with the latter you are generating more effort andf hence more heat produced so you sweat more.<br /><br />What is missing from Xeno's comment, and it would be very informative, is what the output actually was. His fitness level would mean that even at 19 - 21 spm steady state he would be producing a lot of watts (low splits) and hence generating lots of heat that needs to be dealt with.<br /><br />Neil <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Hi Neil<br />You are right. The more you push aerobically the more your body is going to heat up. So sweating is not just the "waist" from the aerobic cycle but also the cooling mechanisme that the body uses. At my best I was able to turn solidly 300 Watts + for up to two hours with short breaks every fifteen minutes to rehydrate.<br />XENO<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

The more you sweat, the more waist you lose.

[[old] Ole Granny]

Just a quick reminder from Gran before we all buy machines , or suchlike, in order to measure our amount of sweat. <br /><br />Sweating depends on many variable external factors such as the temperature, humidity and wind speed ( eg fan) on any one day..also internal factors such as degree of hydration, recent intake of salt or sugar, or a hot drink, and most importantly of all, the individual variation in sweat production.<br /><br />We women, ofcourse, are in a difficult position as we do not sweat..we only perspire!<br /><br />Cheers, and happy rowing to you all,<br />Ole Granny.

[[old] Mel Harbour]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Jul 4 2005, 02:54 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Jul 4 2005, 02:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mel, <br /><br />Under this plan, how long is a UT1 session?  An AT session?<br /><br />For the purposes of estimating % Gold Time, would you use the average %HRR for these sessions?<br /><br />- Ralph <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Some examples (note these are certainly not comprehensive - they are merely examples).<br /><br />UT1 - intervals of 20-40 minutes - something like 2x20' r19, 21, 23, 19 every 2 minutes, with 10' between sets.<br />AT - 8-20' - something like 1x5km r24.<br />TR - 2-8' pieces - something like 3x2k r26/28, 28/30, 32 with 10' rest.<br /><br />To get your percentage of target time, simply note the speed you've done the session at (500m/split in seconds) then express it as a percentage of the target speed.<br /><br />Mel<br />