Strength or Aerobic capacity, which goes first as we age

[nick rockliff]

Some good input, thanks.

Prior to finding the erg back in 2002 my sporting background was very sparce. Bit of swimming at school, good level breaststroke, bit of running/jogging, couple of local triathlons. Also used to do a lot of horse riding. So when I was at my peak on the erg at 48 I must have been well past my sellby date

If I hadn't had to deal with bowel cancer when I turned 50 I think I would have improved even further from my peak. Didn't seem to start seeing decreasing performances until late 50s.

Never done any weight training but do know I have large lung capacity. Max HR has never been high, VO2MAX step test recorded 173 15 years ago and have only seen 160+ once this year. Resting HR at about 48.

May go back to more UT2 next year to see where that takes me. May even take another blood lactate profile test too to check my zones. 1.58 r20 feels about right for UT2 so would be good to get proper zones again and do it right.

[flatbread]

Nick, as much as I'll type below is there in any and all plans that you'll find, but from what I can infer from looking at some of them, the only real difference with rowing/erging plans as opposed to trainig for any other endurance sport is the emphasis on using specific rates in pieces and sessions (because that matters to to rowing and erging).

Endurance sports and old guys (over 50)?

Take two recovery days: couch or active recovery, and active recovery means less than 55% HR peak -- not even breaking a sweat, laughingly easy. I always go "what?" at rowers and ergers calling UT2 "recovery" -- that's endurance.

Two days a week, or maybe just one, go hard: AT/TR/AN, level 1, level 2, whatever you call them. Anything 5k pace or faster is hard. hard is hard.

Every other day, do as much low intensity steady state as you can recover from. the key is "as you can recover from" and not "as you can do."

Long term, it's probably better to err on the side of more low intensity training than more intervals -- what Seiler says about "making the cake vs. eating the cake"

[nick rockliff]

Nick, as much as I'll type below is there in any and all plans that you'll find, but from what I can infer from looking at some of them, the only real difference with rowing/erging plans as opposed to trainig for any other endurance sport is the emphasis on using specific rates in pieces and sessions (because that matters to to rowing and erging).

Endurance sports and old guys (over 50)?

Take two recovery days: couch or active recovery, and active recovery means less than 55% HR peak -- not even breaking a sweat, laughingly easy. I always go "what?" at rowers and ergers calling UT2 "recovery" -- that's endurance.

Two days a week, or maybe just one, go hard: AT/TR/AN, level 1, level 2, whatever you call them. Anything 5k pace or faster is hard. hard is hard.

Every other day, do as much low intensity steady state as you can recover from. the key is "as you can recover from" and not "as you can do."

Long term, it's probably better to err on the side of more low intensity training than more intervals -- what Seiler says about "making the cake vs. eating the cake"

Done most of the training plans in one way or another over the years. Volume consisting of UT2, UT1 worked best for me but was based on 400k to 500k per month about 11 sessions a week. Recovery was never a problem and injuries very few over the years.

Seem to be doing OK right now on a diet of 30 min sessions all top end aerobic.

[KeithT]

Looks like many people are saying that you lose fitness before strength - that may be the case but for me, specific to the ERG I feel I am definitely losing peak power but have still gained fitness. It may be more dependent how long you did a certain sport/activity. I was at my strongest weightlifting wise in my 30s but I think I am as fit now as I have ever been. Then again I wasn't training for fitness when I was in my 30s. Recovery is my biggest issue and I know my T levels are coming down but still feel I can gain more fitness.

[flatbread]

Seem to be doing OK right now on a diet of 30 min sessions all top end aerobic.

That will work for a few months to maybe up to a year because of all the Base you've developed over the years. At some point the volume will need to return as that Base erodes. I've seen that with a good number of middle-aged athletes who switch to a very low volume, higher intensity plan for an extended period. Then back up to rebuild the base, and then sometimes back down to low volume, higher intensity. Can work in cycles -- and the high VLA types (smokin fast for 4-6 min, not so good over 40-60) tend to do better on a long-term diet of those cycles than the low VLA, super slow twitch types, who really need volume.

[hjs]

Seem to be doing OK right now on a diet of 30 min sessions all top end aerobic.

That will work for a few months to maybe up to a year because of all the Base you've developed over the years. At some point the volume will need to return as that Base erodes. I've seen that with a good number of middle-aged athletes who switch to a very low volume, higher intensity plan for an extended period. Then back up to rebuild the base, and then sometimes back down to low volume, higher intensity. Can work in cycles -- and the high VLA types (smokin fast for 4-6 min, not so good over 40-60) tend to do better on a long-term diet of those cycles than the low VLA, super slow twitch types, who really need volume.

Think rowing, bit like running less volume is possible, compared to cycling swimming etc. “only” 10 hours a week would be 150k. And just the thought of doing that ...

[flatbread]

Seem to be doing OK right now on a diet of 30 min sessions all top end aerobic.

That will work for a few months to maybe up to a year because of all the Base you've developed over the years. At some point the volume will need to return as that Base erodes. I've seen that with a good number of middle-aged athletes who switch to a very low volume, higher intensity plan for an extended period. Then back up to rebuild the base, and then sometimes back down to low volume, higher intensity. Can work in cycles -- and the high VLA types (smokin fast for 4-6 min, not so good over 40-60) tend to do better on a long-term diet of those cycles than the low VLA, super slow twitch types, who really need volume.

Think rowing, bit like running less volume is possible, compared to cycling swimming etc. “only” 10 hours a week would be 150k. And just the thought of doing that ...

volume is definitely relative across sports. when I was good, the least I would put in on the bike was 10 hrs in a "rest" week -- a load week might be 24. Try doing that running and you'll be in the hospital!

but, I would think that going under 40-50k a week for a long period would start to erode a rower's base, if their old weeks were 80-100k. but, that's conjecture -- I've never been a rower!

[hjs]

volume is definitely relative across sports. when I was good, the least I would put in on the bike was 10 hrs in a "rest" week -- a load week might be 24. Try doing that running and you'll be in the hospital!

but, I would think that going under 40-50k a week for a long period would start to erode a rower's base, if their old weeks were 80-100k. but, that's conjecture -- I've never been a rower!

Olympic rowers certainly do make their meters. But above 200k a week is rare. Crosstraining can be extra, cycling and sometimes running.
For myself I never did very much rowing, but did other stuff next to it. Bit difficult to add that on.

Looking at the feel of both running and rowing when racing and compare that to both swimming and cycling. The last two are way easier to recover from. In both sports number of races is way above running/rowing.

[Boris1956]

Just my thoughts (such as they are). I think strength probably outlasts stamina although I think it depends on the athlete/sport. I used to compete in shot/discus/hammer and it was not uncommon to see athletes competing at an elite level into their late 30's/early 40's. From my point of view I was still bench pressing 140k in my 40's. This was at a time when I was pulling 6.12.6 for 2k. In my late teens I could power clean 130kg and snatch 95k as well as being able to clock 12sec flat for 100m and 24sec flat for 200m so I was always a power based athlete albeit with a good endurance base.
I don't lift weights at the moment but train on the erg at UT1/UT2 for 45' - 80' sessions. My weight is coming off steadily and I have to say I feel better for it. An erg session makes me feel good in a way that weights don't. I think a lot of it comes down to attitude. At the moment I'm in a 'the flesh is willing, but the spirit is weak' mode, however I make myself do my session and feel better as a result. The only advice I can give is that everyone keeps on keeping on.

[Cant Climb]

Max heart rate also declines and that can limit your aerobic fitness.

This is it - pretty simple according to top physiologists I've heard.
Drives all the aerobic factors down.

[frankencrank]

Max heart rate also declines and that can limit your aerobic fitness.

This is it - pretty simple according to top physiologists I've heard.
Drives all the aerobic factors down.

That is simply a decline is muscle function (the heart is a muscle) similar to the decline of all the muscles. Aerobic fitness relative to muscle function probably remains pretty constant I would guess.

[flatbread]

Max heart rate also declines and that can limit your aerobic fitness.

This is it - pretty simple according to top physiologists I've heard.
Drives all the aerobic factors down.

That is simply a decline is muscle function (the heart is a muscle) similar to the decline of all the muscles. Aerobic fitness relative to muscle function probably remains pretty constant I would guess.

this is related to why older athletes can still maintain a lot of their performance at MLSS and below, but lose VO2 and anaerobic capacity as they age -- and why MLSS as a percentage of VO2max actually starts to creep upwards as you pass 40, if you keep up the work.

example, former MTB world champion Ned Overend, who has ridden like a "normal" masters racer for most of the last 20 years (well, double-digit hours each week, but a fair number of motivated masters keep that up). he can still do 5 w/kg at MLSS, even past 60 (we was pushing 6 w/kg in his 20s), but he has very little available above that. so, he can hang with much younger riders in a breakaway, but he can't deliver the blows.

he's a gifted, gifted elite, to be sure, but that physical pattern is consistent with the less talented, if they put in the work. aerobically, you can maintain a whole lot of sub-maximal fitness (so you could still pull a good pace for UT2 or UT1 HR), but when you start going past MLSS, into 5k or 2k pace land, you ain't what you used to be....

[mromero680]

Based on my experience, power/strength. I can still hang with my old self on aerobic pursuits but I struggle to maintain explosiveness with weights, on the bike and on the rower. I still fight it and lift three days a week and I'm now focusing on lower reps of bench, squat and deadlift with some cleans and presses mixed in and that seems to be helping after five weeks but remains to be seen how much progress I can make towards older PBs.

[jamesg]

I've only 2k numbers, since most of the rest is walking only. I dropped from:
7:10 - 280W - rate 28 at age 63, HRR 60 to 165, to
8:47 - 153W - rate 23 at age 80, HRR 60 to 150.

I've also dropped in the 30' from 7.5km (200W) to 6.4 (125W) km, which is perhpas a better guide, since the time dos not change.

[adccl8z]

Nearly 53.
My experience in last 16 years of owning my own C2.

Referring to a benchmark of 90secs on, 90secs off, *8

Best (2006, aged 38): 3520m
Latest (this wk): 3360m

I don't do this routine too often, maybe couple times a month.

So about 10m loss per year though of course thats not a straight line decline; in the last 3 years I've noticed a distinct drop off, 3400 would be really good now and 3500 seems unachievable without a significant change to my typical weekly/monthly exercise routines and frequency that I've sustained fairly consistently over last 16 yrs.
Seems to hurt a lot more now too!