Rowing in Zwift - suggestion to make it happen

[Carl Watts]

Personally I thought that obvious separation of the rowers was better within Zwift. Keep the cadance equal to the spm and charge the clothing to a separate range exclusively for rowers. The reason being its impossible to directly correlate the two exercises so when it comes to the final results like it always does either the rowers will be pissed off or the cyclists will be pissed off. Rowers need to be instantly identifiable in the field to the cyclists.

You could have an overall standings but you would still need to separate the results.

Obviously you want to be able to "Ride" with the cyclists and roughly be in a position in the field that matches you ability or it's going to kill the motivation.

Clearly the one advantage of the single rower over the multiple bike options is the power accuracy and the ability for more direct comparison so your really only interested in comparisons between rowers and not with cyclists

[Dino]

The rowing to cycling cadence formula I'm using in PainSled and RowedBiker is (stroke rating * 2) + 40.

Thanks James, I was a bit unsure what made the most sense. I mostly row at ~30+ spm and ride at ~90 rpm, but a simple 3x multiplication obviously had too much potential for massive rpms on the cycle side. As RPM seemed to only affect the avatar on Zwift rather than performance my goal was mostly just making the rider looks like he wasn't wading through mud

I quite like it that my pedals are turning slowly, makes you stand out that you are not on a bike! As pointed out, its a cosmetic thing and doesn't affect your performance. Its good that you have kept it optional to have scaling on cadence.

[exerscreen]

The rowing to cycling cadence formula I'm using in PainSled and RowedBiker is (stroke rating * 2) + 40.

Thanks James, I was a bit unsure what made the most sense. I mostly row at ~30+ spm and ride at ~90 rpm, but a simple 3x multiplication obviously had too much potential for massive rpms on the cycle side. As RPM seemed to only affect the avatar on Zwift rather than performance my goal was mostly just making the rider looks like he wasn't wading through mud

I quite like it that my pedals are turning slowly, makes you stand out that you are not on a bike! As pointed out, its a cosmetic thing and doesn't affect your performance. Its good that you have kept it optional to have scaling on cadence.

My original motivation was to be able to do some of the workouts where they dictate a cadence without having Zwift whine at me the entire workout about pedaling too slow. After getting it going, I did notice that it added a bit of interest hitting the rpm targets. Not the same thing as ratings drills in rowing though, since we have no gears. Lifting your rating without increasing power is kind of tricky!

[exerscreen]

Personally I thought that obvious separation of the rowers was better within Zwift. Keep the cadance equal to the spm and charge the clothing to a separate range exclusively for rowers. The reason being its impossible to directly correlate the two exercises so when it comes to the final results like it always does either the rowers will be pissed off or the cyclists will be pissed off. Rowers need to be instantly identifiable in the field to the cyclists.

You could have an overall standings but you would still need to separate the results.

Obviously you want to be able to "Ride" with the cyclists and roughly be in a position in the field that matches you ability or it's going to kill the motivation.

Clearly the one advantage of the single rower over the multiple bike options is the power accuracy and the ability for more direct comparison so your really only interested in comparisons between rowers and not with cyclists

Yeah, rowing as a cyclist is just plain weird at the end of the day. You really do have to accept it as a fitness game and just "play" it. With that said, you can indeed use it as a pure training platform. If you want to turn off most of the cycling aspects and just keep the visuals it turns out that watts are just watts. If you use a TT frame, you can even get rid of the drafting effect so you don't have to worry about speed changes due to that.

edit: I forgot to mention that I actually added smart treadmill support for some users who wanted to keep their rowing data separate from their cycling data on Zwift. Other folks use that mode because Zwift running subs are currently free.

[Dino]

As picked up by someone on the Zwift Rowers FB group...

Zwift CEO Eric Min mentions "rowing coming out in a few weeks" at 55:25 of this PYSO podcast with Bobby Julich. https://soundcloud.com/velonews/pyso-ep ... innovation

I wonder what this means!??

Interesting as C2 only has direct support for the BikeErg and its a licensing thing apparently. Even though its the same PM5, its the BikeErg firmware profile that is different. I did ask C2 support the question and this was the response:

"After consultation with my colleague in Engineering, it appears that Zwift would have to make additions to support the RowErg into their ecosystem, rather than us implement any changes to the ANT+ standard, as we are under license to use the system and are not permitted to add new profiles"

I have tried on the rower PM5 just out of interest. On the PM5 if I go to the Connect ANT+FE-C option, then look on Zwift on my laptop with an ANT+ USB dongle it does actually pick up under power source and shows CONCEPT2 FE-C1570. Cadence does not pick up the PM5. If I however try and row, then it doesn’t register any Watts. Zwift wont pick up the PM5 by Bluetooth at all.

I guess will wait and see what the Zwift CEO means by this!

[Carl Watts]

Thanks for that post Dino, very informative.

Well what it means sounds pretty clear to me, Zwift has pretty definite plans to start catering for the Erg users in a native setup within Zwift.

That said there has been rumours for a very long time now and it still has not happened.

Wow 90,000 riders signed up for the weekend, its impossible to imagine how huge this will be if they can incorporate the Erg into those rides.

Still really hoping for a USB connection direct to the PM5 first up, really don't want any more wireless if I can help it. Sure add wireless connectivity as well but please don't just add Bluetooth as the only option. Way to much wireless already in my set-up with 3 existing connections.

[CJOttawa]

Good find Dino!

Rowing's been built in for years but not accessible to end users:

https://www.facebook.com/ZwiftHype/phot ... =3&theater

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIDkjpBG8A

I think they've got the technical challenges already nailed and the reason Zwift doesn't accept the input from a rowerg in bike mode is the fitness profile is tagged as "indoor rower" and Zwift is coded to ignore it. (IIRC, you can't "bike to run" or "run to bike" in Zwift either - it ignores mismatched profiles) When Concept2 support says "Zwift would have to make additions to support the RowErg" they're right - the PM5 is 100% compliant with ANT+FEC and BTLE FTMS standards. It's up to software companies to design apps that accept the incoming data.

Zwift hadn't previously made concrete statements about a rowing launch - it was always "a couple of years" or "before next Christmas."

The "next few weeks" comment by the Zwift CEO in PYSO episode 60 says to me they've been busy working on the launch and are about to flip the switch. Fingers crossed!

[Carl Watts]

It's going to be massive right from the release date.

It's what the Concept 2 rower has needed for 10 years.

I'm picking it may only be for the PM5 monitors but that's not a problem but please make sure it has a USB interface option not wireless only.

[PawsyBear]

If it’s going to be online and live then I’m pretty sure it will require PM5 and or some wireless connection. I’ve been on Zwift since the beta. It’s made a massive difference to training. Thousands now sign up for events and competitions. Ive got PM5 concept2 rower and I personally will change to get on Zwift as I know how much more engaging training, riding and racing is. Zwift has swept through the riding community and new smart bikes events and community are now becoming the new norm. If rowing goes the same way as cycling then your going to see manufacturers developing new products. A win win situation for us.

[Recess]

No one has asked, but here are my thoughts on Zwift Rowing:

I'm sure this issue has already been discussed, but the biggest challenge that Zwift are going to face is the integration of different kinds of rowing machines. There are two options:

1) Make it Concept2 only. Ignoring all the other machines (which, to be fair, most don't have any kind of way to connect anyway)
2) Work out a way that every rowing machine can play (impossible, but hey...) and then annoy all the Concept2 people who want parity.
3) Make racing separate. So that there are Concept2 'purist' races - RP3 races - SkillRow races etc - group like with like.

The difference between cycling and rowing is number 2 above. For cycling, it doesn't matter what bike you use or what trainer you use. Yes there's a split between a dumb trainer and a smart trainer, but that's noted with an icon and a reduced detail of results. But what this means is that Zwift cycling is massive because absolutely anyone with a bike and a trainer can take part.

The Concept 2 community is huge - in indoor rowing. But compared to cycling, it's not as big or as instantly accessible to the home user.

Assuming they've already thought about all of this, and Zwift Rowing is going to appear very very soon - it has the power to already kill software like EXR (who are still in Beta - although part of my does wonder whether they're actually Zwift in disguise) but also could steal the online racing market dominance from RowPro. It's only really the pricing plan that would work in RowPro's favour.

Anyway. Like I said, no one asked, and I'm sure it's been discussed better earlier in this thread. But as it's looking soon, it'll be interesting to see what they do.

John

[PawsyBear]

“ it has the power to already kill software ”

That’s true but what has happened with Zwift is it has created lots of competitors. Zwift proved there was a market and attracted lots of people. Competition followed quickly. I’ve used some of them and their very good. It wouldn’t be fair to see Zwift as the meteor that wipes out the rowing software dinosaurs I’ve tried Rowpro and some other phone aps. I think the rowing community hasn’t been well served for up to date online rowing software. As I suggested above if rowing follows the Zwift cycling experience it’s popularity sparked a increase in consumer participation that created a whole wave of new equipment, competitor software, races, clubs, forums, podcasts etc

[Carl Watts]

I can see why Zwift has delayed adding the Rowing element.

They have skipped trying to integrate the rower into the cycling and have just created a whole separate rowing environment just for the Concept 2 rowers. While this is the ideal situation we have had to wait years for it to be implemented.

Its perhaps a little unfortunate from a user perspective that all the other rowing software alternatives up to this point in time really have not cut the mustard and have therefore left the door wide open for another player to clean sweep the market after over the likes of RowPro had a 10 year head start.

Zwift will be a lot more expensive to use, RowPro has pretty much cost me only USD$99 for 10 years of usage.

[Recess]

Zwift will be a lot more expensive to use, RowPro has pretty much cost me only USD$99 for 10 years of usage.

And I think that'll be a stumbling block - until it explodes like the cycling option did. It's ok for people like me who already pay the subscription to Zwift for their cycling option - but it may be too high a price point for others. It may not... but...

There are certainly other options out there for cycling like Trainer Road - but looking at the numbers, Zwift has the lion's share. And if they can market rowing in the same way, and keep the user-experience as interesting as the cycling option, as long as people can see past the price point, it'll make a great go of stealing the market. ESPECIALLY if it offers live rowing via a phone app rather than PC/Mac connection, which then opens up gym options all other the world (probably PM5 only though...)

John

[Carl Watts]

Hey John I think rowing for Zwift will fly.

The reason is as you have already suggested, many cyclists ALREADY are on Zwift and they ALSO already own a rower so they are already paying the monthly subscription so for them its FREE.

I can tell you straight up that there are ALREADY more users of Zwift with a rower than there are users of RowPro, certainly probably way more and most certainly WAY more in Zwift that will be prepared to row Online.

RowPro has maybe a 100 users worldwide that row online on a regular weekly basis, it has non existent online presence because of the way they designed the software.

[Recess]

That’s a good point. The amount of rowers who also have a bike and vice versa will take care of a lot of the start up numbers. If you look at the forums and Facebook (sorry) groups, people have been asking for it for a long time.

I’m genuinely excited for it to happen - so please don’t take my cautioned tone to be one of dismissal.

The biggest problem with RowPro and many of the apps is marketing. They don’t push their products hard enough. The only product I’ve ever known to work based purely on user generated promotion is ironically, Concept2. They don’t need to market because they have us. We all use and love to use their rowing machines. Nothing else will do. Any competitor is treated as second rate. And even those that do slip through, like RP3 still will never take the market because as users, we will never allow it

Absolute genius. Based round a rock solid product of course. But they’ve managed to hit gold by letting their user base be the marketing.

Sorry. I got side tracked...

John