Maffetone Heart Rate Training

[dsoucek]

I see it as great for building aerobic fitness after a layoff, general health and recovery efforts.

I guess I thought this was the whole point of Maffetone training. I didn't think folks were saying use this to improve your 2K for example, but rather to improve your aerobic foundation. Having done that, shorter intense work is used to prep for a time trial.

[jackarabit]

We can see fitness as the ability to deliver oxygen and fuel and remove waste at a certain rate. This rate increases if we increase the load, and decreases if the load decreases; and constant load will mean constant rate.

Evidently a constant power load over a greater distance is not a change in rate of load delivery or removal; the mechanisms that carry the load are already in place.

If the mechanisms are cell functions, we have to force them to grow. But cells die, so we have to work just to maintain their number, and more will die than grow if we don't.

Interesting postulate in bold. I’m currently superposing Maffish HR cap on Pete Beginner SS rows which increment distance every week. Were I to subtract beats for age, CAD, COPD, nose hair and cataracts, working HR limiter would be 112 bpm and I could work out just wiggling my toes while crashed on the sofa. So using 130bpm cap (high not average). This was bottom of my OT2 zone a few years back. The Pete pace ‘target’, which is simply what you got first day and repeat, is working OK. Currently 87W and not needing to reduce effort to avoid blowing thru the cap. SR consistent @ 20-21.

BPP speed interval average so far is just north of old AT zone (150W av.) Goal for short intervals: top TR/low AN pace in 6 months.

If James and the ‘no difference’ crew are correct that the Maffish bloom of metabolic efficiency is stunted in the suppositional bud, I’m going to be bummed but not entirely taken by surprise. More when I know more.

[G-dub]

Every time I have read Maffetone, it describes including interval training once base has been established. Tom me the only thing that makes it different is the arbitrary method of establishing hr cap

[dknickerbocker]

but i suspect that a lot of people who benefit from Maffetone could also do well and maybe even better with a train high / train low approach.

You mean an approach like ... Maffetone?

I thought maffetone was just train low?

[Allan Olesen]

I thought maffetone was just train low?

It seems that you share that misunderstanding with most people who have opinions on Maffetone.

Saying that Maffetone is only low intensity is like saying that Wolverine is only L4.

[dknickerbocker]

I thought maffetone was just train low?

It seems that you share that misunderstanding with most people who have opinions on Maffetone.

Saying that Maffetone is only low intensity is like saying that Wolverine is only L4.

lol then it's strange to me that anyone would argue against it. at least in concept, that is. In execution -- e.g. the STRICT hr limits etc., there's room to argue about.

[hjs]

but i suspect that a lot of people who benefit from Maffetone could also do well and maybe even better with a train high / train low approach.

You mean an approach like ... Maffetone?

I thought maffetone was just train low?

https://philmaffetone.com/aerobic-training-guidelines/

https://philmaffetone.com/my-favorite-a ... -workouts/

[philjoakley]

I see it as great for building aerobic fitness after a layoff, general health and recovery efforts.

I guess I thought this was the whole point of Maffetone training. I didn't think folks were saying use this to improve your 2K for example, but rather to improve your aerobic foundation. Having done that, shorter intense work is used to prep for a time trial.

Totally agree with your comments. Also agree with other comments that Maffetone is not a low intensity method of training. Intervals are a key part of the plan once an aerobic base has been built and MAF test results have stopped improving.

For me, one of the key strengths of Maffetone is the avoidance of stress and over training. My experience with it running was that the workouts were very slow at first but they did get faster at MAF heart rate and they were very enjoyable. I also had fewer injuries. I did all my easy runs at MAF or below and mixed this with intervals with good results.

The other key point is the training of the body to use fat as fuel and this has great potential for endurance efforts. This is why Maffetone has long been convinced for that a sub 2 hour marathon is possible.

My question with using MAF on the erg is how much volume of training you would need to do to see real benefits. My guess is quite a lot and many of us might not have time to see the results. That said, I think as a safe and healthy way to exercise Maffetone has a lot to offer. For a rower looking to get fast with limited training time, less so.

[Allan Olesen]

I read Maffetone's first book in '94, and I've always thought that he just had kind of a gimmicky way of doing what was...well...just training.

Completely right. These principles have been known in running for around 100 years. I think Ernst Van Aaken was the first to formulate them. However, even though they have been known by for very long, they have been unknown by the vast majority of people and still is.

I mentioned running as a sport with a long history of low intensity base training. Well, go into any run forum and look at the number of posts where people for the first time get told that they need to slow down their easy sessions, because they go too hard. At first they will be unwilling to believe it. When they start to believe it, they will try to come up with all sorts of explanations of why they are so different from the standard person that the standard models of calculating intensity will not fit, and they need to run faster.

Maffetone is probably the person who has done most to get the principles of low effort training out to the general public. (And Seiler is probably the scientist who have done most to get it out to the scientific world.)

[Allan Olesen]

And Lydiard.

As I wrote, these principles have been known in running for almost 100 years.

Do you really think that Lydiard got those principles out to the general public?

How many in this thread except you and me have ever heard about Lydiard's training principles?

[dknickerbocker]

and Jan Olbrecht in the science of winning. He always made the point that endurance didn't mean going long AND hard and that going long and hard (which really means only kinda hard) is its own separate workout with its own time and place.

In terms of it being gimmicky: i think that's the whole point of this stuff, in a way. Like, there's no real physiological reason why you need to wait x months before doing intervals, the MAF heart rate formula is probably not exactly right for any one person, but if following these strict but arbitrary rules helps someone avoid overtraining, then it's useful. It's the same thing with 80/20 polarized training.

[jackarabit]

Flatbread writes:

If you can't close your mouth and just breathe through your nose comfortably, or if you can't sing a song, you're going to hard for basic endurance.

You’d think PE would be a sufficient tell of basal LIT even without the R. Who needs a scale if the sweet spot is known? This approach would produce the salutary effect of allowing the statistical nodes and derived screeds to get the rest they deserve. Scholars, scriveners and showmen are a bad combination!

With that said, I assume I am permitted to have mustard with cereal? Know Dub has no reservations.

[G-dub]

And Lydiard.

As I wrote, these principles have been known in running for almost 100 years.

Do you really think that Lydiard got those principles out to the general public?

How many in this thread except you and me have ever heard about Lydiard's training principles?

Me

[MiddleAgeCRISIS]

Well, I'm still doing my Maffetone training . I am up to 1.89m metres now with some intense mountain biking thrown in for HIIT

i've lost 31 lbs so that's good. I've been rowing at 107bpm mostly but I've noticed that my splits for a 120 bpm workout are 2.30 consistently.

I've just added 27cm to my drive length with a better catch and swing back. I wasnt really doing this before as I was fat.

i am usually fatigued when rowing and I do think that i would have a performance benefit if I had a week off.

The volume of rowing appears to have resolved an issue with patella tendonitis so thats fantastic for me.

I am having to manage flexibility through stretching and rolling. I wouldnt consider any HIIT right now as Id be worried about my quad unpeeling itself.

Although it is boring , and lacks the battle of more intense sessions, I can grind this out long term and its delivering massively for me to get my weight down, rehab my knee and I dont think I am bulking up by doing it.

So 19 stone 10 - 90 ish days ago. 17 stone 3 ish today. Unable to descend stairs 100 days ago, unable to descend trails on a mountain bike, scared to walk down slopes , ramps etc. So quite pleased really.

Goal is to continue as is for 60 more days and then take a look.

[Allan Olesen]

i am usually fatigued when rowing and I do think that i would have a performance benefit if I had a week off.

I can't remember if it has already been mentioned in this thread, but there are other low intensity training regimens where you cut volume to 50% for one week every four weeks to avoid working yourself down in a fatigue hole.