20R30 DF Question

[max_ratcliffe]

This article explains the reasons for the 30R20 and what effects it has on the body:

http://q-power.co/30r20__1_of_3_.html

[rufiedog]

Say you would increese the drag and use the same pace. This would make the session easier, not harder, drivetime would be longer with the slower fan.

Most of the time, putting the drag up, makes it easier to go faster, you simply have more drivetime, so the pace is faster, but.... you don,t have more fitness, so you can’t sustain this higher pace.

Re 8k. If a rower can pull 8k over a 30/20 he will not pull 6.50, most will be a good bit faster.

Given your current level, I would worry most over staying healthy. 7300 point at this not being a strongpoint. So lots to gain without messing around with drags.

30R20 at a 105 DF drag is way easier than at 120 DF. The restricted rate is the reason. Free rate would be different story. As for 8000 meters, yes I could probably do that pace now but I know better. The idea is to build from a slower pace and allow time for the adaption to take affect. I started at a 2:03 split last week. This week I did a 2:02.2 split. Next week will be a 2:01.4 split, and so on. I am systematically increasing the pace each session by .8 sec split until I cant do any better, then ill reassess and start the process over again. This method keeps me motivated and excited. Eliminates burn out

[rufiedog]

in general the slower the SR the lower the DF. If you are trying to row sr20 with a high df you will using a lot of strength overcoming the slowing fan - you really want it to be just spinning along with that terrific whooshing noise. Higher DF is OK for higher rated sprinty stuff where you can get back to the next stroke before the fan slows. You are more likely to risk injury at high df and lower sr.

Agree Lindsay that with a higher DF and lower stroke rate more strength is needed in order to pull through the fan but isn't strength the focus on 30R20? Am thinking a more challenging stroke (in terms of strength ) in this session may be a good thing.

Imo, strength doesn't have the same literal meaning in this instance and it has to be considered as the ability to produce a better result and the drag is just your medium to that end. If you find that a higher drag feels better, and critically you don't lose technique and form as you get tired, then it's possibly worth using a higher drag, but be aware that this will increase your chances of injury so it has to be considered on a risk / reward basis.

As you say the 30r20 felt notably harder than your intervals this indicates to me that you're going to be losing form as you get tired and therefore a higher drag will only make you more susceptible to injury. I'll use a drag of circa 115-120 for a 30r20 as I don't see any benefit from going higher as it will just lead to a slower pace and final distance as I will tire quicker and have to back off.

If you want to increase strength I'd be far more inclined to do that through weight training and / or calisthenics.

You are exactly right on. I am going to stick with a comfortable DF

[rufiedog]

Say you would increese the drag and use the same pace. This would make the session easier, not harder, drivetime would be longer with the slower fan.

Most of the time, putting the drag up, makes it easier to go faster, you simply have more drivetime, so the pace is faster, but.... you don,t have more fitness, so you can’t sustain this higher pace.

Re 8k. If a rower can pull 8k over a 30/20 he will not pull 6.50, most will be a good bit faster.

Given your current level, I would worry most over staying healthy. 7300 point at this not being a strongpoint. So lots to gain without messing around with drags.

30R20 at a 105 DF drag is way easier than at 120 DF. The restricted rate is the reason. Free rate would be different story. As for 8000 meters, yes I could probably do that pace now but I know better. The idea is to build from a slower pace and allow time for the adaption to take affect. I started at a 2:03 split last week. This week I did a 2:02.2 split. Next week will be a 2:01.4 split, and so on. I am systematically increasing the pace each session by .8 sec split until I cant do any better, then ill reassess and start the process over again. This method keeps me motivated and excited. Eliminates burn out

Correction. I couldn't even come close to 8K now. I just calculated the pace. I could probably do 7500. But the idea is to keep building. I hope to someday be at 8k

[hjs]

Say you would increese the drag and use the same pace. This would make the session easier, not harder, drivetime would be longer with the slower fan.

Most of the time, putting the drag up, makes it easier to go faster, you simply have more drivetime, so the pace is faster, but.... you don,t have more fitness, so you can’t sustain this higher pace.

Re 8k. If a rower can pull 8k over a 30/20 he will not pull 6.50, most will be a good bit faster.

Given your current level, I would worry most over staying healthy. 7300 point at this not being a strongpoint. So lots to gain without messing around with drags.

30R20 at a 105 DF drag is way easier than at 120 DF. The restricted rate is the reason. Free rate would be different story. As for 8000 meters, yes I could probably do that pace now but I know better. The idea is to build from a slower pace and allow time for the adaption to take affect. I started at a 2:03 split last week. This week I did a 2:02.2 split. Next week will be a 2:01.4 split, and so on. I am systematically increasing the pace each session by .8 sec split until I cant do any better, then ill reassess and start the process over again. This method keeps me motivated and excited. Eliminates burn out

Correction. I couldn't even come close to 8K now. I just calculated the pace. I could probably do 7500. But the idea is to keep building. I hope to someday be at 8k

I got that, but you think about a 6.50 2k and for that 8k is not needed.

[Montecore]

Where would you suggest working this into a training schedule? As I've pretty much lived on Pete Plan variants up until this point, I've never done a 30r20.

Right now I just started a new training program where I'm targeting 6 UT2, 2 UT1, 1 AT, and 1 AR session per cycle with two rest days built in. Should I include it as an additional day and just extend the cycle? Add it into the AT session rotation? Other? (Sorry in advance if this is an obvious question.)

The article posted above made it seem like doing them once per week would be useful, but given I'm more recreational, I'm not really sure what frequency I "should" be doing (although I know it depends on my goals - general fitness and improving my 2k time are where I'm currently at there).

[hjs]

Where would you suggest working this into a training schedule? As I've pretty much lived on Pete Plan variants up until this point, I've never done a 30r20.

Right now I just started a new training program where I'm targeting 6 UT2, 2 UT1, 1 AT, and 1 AR session per cycle with two rest days built in. Should I include it as an additional day and just extend the cycle? Add it into the AT session rotation? Other? (Sorry in advance if this is an obvious question.)

The article posted above made it seem like doing them once per week would be useful, but given I'm more recreational, I'm not really sure what frequency I "should" be doing (although I know it depends on my goals - general fitness and improving my 2k time are where I'm currently at there).

Depends a bit. If you do it hard, say 95% effort or above its clearly a timetrial effort. Once a week certainly not more. Or less.
But it can also be done on lower intensity. Ut2 would be very doable, ut1 could be done a few times per week.
In itself there is nothing magical about it. The way you build it in is up to you.
A full on effort is not something you want to do every week, all year round. Its a nasty session,

[nick rockliff]

Just done 30r20 DF123

30 min - 8040 - 1.51.9 - 20

06 - 1605 - 1.52.1 - 20 - 137 end HR
12 - 1605 - 1.52.1 - 20 - 145
18 - 1605 - 1.52.1 - 20 - 151
24 - 1607 - 1.52.0 - 20 - 154
30 - 1618 - 1.51.2 - 20 - 156

[Montecore]

Depends a bit. If you do it hard, say 95% effort or above its clearly a timetrial effort. Once a week certainly not more. Or less.
But it can also be done on lower intensity. Ut2 would be very doable, ut1 could be done a few times per week.
In itself there is nothing magical about it. The way you build it in is up to you.
A full on effort is not something you want to do every week, all year round. Its a nasty session,

So it sounds like if the plan is to ease into it somewhat, rotating it in as one of the UT1 sessions and starting out on the high end of whatever I estimate my initial UT1 target pace to be (and increasing the pace gradually as my fitness at this workout improves) would be reasonable, with maybe mixing in a full effort every few months whenever I get the itch to tackle a rating piece so my signature isn't so barren.

[Tony Cook]

Felt inspired by the thread to do one.
Increased PB by 96m to 8,132 but it seems a whole lot harder than last time. I dropped the DF to 108, from 120, don’t know if that made much difference.

[nick rockliff]

Felt inspired by the thread to do one.
Increased PB by 96m to 8,132 but it seems a whole lot harder than last time. I dropped the DF to 108, from 120, don’t know if that made much difference.

You need to knock about 3 min off your 10k

[boomingaway]

Depends a bit. If you do it hard, say 95% effort or above its clearly a timetrial effort. Once a week certainly not more. Or less.
But it can also be done on lower intensity. Ut2 would be very doable, ut1 could be done a few times per week.
In itself there is nothing magical about it. The way you build it in is up to you.
A full on effort is not something you want to do every week, all year round. Its a nasty session,

Can you explain how a UT2 30R20 works? Wouldn't that just be a regular 30 minute UT2 session since your rate shouldn't go above 20 anyway during UT2?

[Dangerscouse]

Felt inspired by the thread to do one.
Increased PB by 96m to 8,132 but it seems a whole lot harder than last time. I dropped the DF to 108, from 120, don’t know if that made much difference.

Well done Tony, that's a great result and I totally agree with Nick. Your 6k and 10k are looking like low hanging fruit for PBs

[Dangerscouse]

FWIW, I did my 30r20 at df117

[Carl Watts]

The only other thing I would add is you pretty much need to use ErgData for the result to give you a verified total stroke count very close to 600.

Probably could argue how close it needs to be to 600 for it to count, but the PM5 by itself rounds down so you can practically be at 21spm and it will still be 20spm in the result and at this type of low rating it makes a pretty big difference.