Why did you stop using RowPro ?

[Carl Watts]

I'm just interested as to why you stopped using rowpro or did not continue to use it after the trial period.

Personally I have been using it for over 10 years now and have never been able to figure out why it's never taken off in terms of numbers like say Zwift after obviously factoring in that there are way more cyclists.

Clearly it's hard for me to tell because whatever the reasons they are not a problem for me but have to conclude it's a combination of the following.

1. The graphics are like something out of the 1980s
2. The user interface is clunky
3. There is never anyone showing online using it
4. Its a nightmare to get working properly.
5. I expect all software these days to be free.
6. There are no course variations in the graphics like different lakes or rivers to row on.

Let me know your experience with it.

[Slothful1]

Hi Carl

I'll ramble through my journey with RowPro and then try to draw a conclusion.

I bought v2 when I got my model D back in 2004, and used it mainly offline as a way to race against my previous rows, or to row against downloaded rows from others. The easy upload to the logbook was also a benefit. I did a couple of online rows for variety, but I found the fixed times and my fiddly internet connection (still dial-up in those days ) more of a hassle then just getting on when I felt like doing a training session.

I used RowPro regularly until first kid was born in 2009, and combined with some work challenges, I started rowing less (sometimes only once a month to do the CTC). I think I was still using RowPro for these sessions out of habit, and generally used it for Season Best attempts so that I could row against some of my past rows.

I ended up taking a break of about 18 months of no rowing, getting back into it during August 2017. I had upgraded my PM3 to a PM5, and discovered the ErgData app. I also discovered that RowPro v4 wouldn't work anymore with the PM5, so paid for the upgrade to v5. Then I discovered that they'd changed the way they managed their historical row data, so I couldn't row against any of my pre-v5 rows anymore. I'm pretty accommodating, so I decided that I could start building up new "old age" PB history in the new RowPro, and eventually hopefully set new real PBs.

I've noticed recently though that it's becoming too much of a hassle to pull out the laptop when doing ranking pieces, and I'm just using the PM5 predicted time / distance to track progress against my target for the session. I do miss rowing against myself like I used to (and trying to stay ahead of my late surges), but the hassle factor is outweighing that benefit.

I wasn't too worried about the graphics, other than as a way of seeing position against the other racers. The software generally worked well for me, so that wasn't a problem. I wasn't a big online user anyway, so the lack of races wasn't a problem for me.

Having used Zwift with the BikeErg, I do find the online option useful. For me having a world to drop into and just be around other online users without necessarily having formal races is good enough. I do a few organised events too, and actually find having a fixed time more useful to plan my day (which is different to my early days in RowPro). The variable scenery in Zwift is useful to distract myself during the session.

I think it would take too much for RowPro to get to a point of addressing my friction points when ErgData is meeting 90%+ of my needs. If ErgData had a simple way to row against historical races with a simple graphic output, then I don't think I'd need anything more from RowPro.

I'd love to see RowPro grow and become more popular, but I think it would take a lot of investment to give them a chance. Zwift sounds like they're close with a rowing solution, so that might be the end.

You've been saying for years that a mobile app would have been the right decision instead of Mac development, and I think you're right. Maybe it was the PM5 development that RowPro didn't see early enough in their journey to save them from going down the Mac rabbit hole. Easy to see with hindsight!

Dave

[Lewin]

Basically because it didn't add anything to my training that easier to use smartphone apps (Ergdata and Boatcoach in my case) didn't provide. The online community was always either a facebook thing, or limited to 12 people for the racing/ training sessions.

I think that where they missed the boat was teaming up with other online communities (the CTC in particular) to get mass participation rows, with live leader boards, and the possibility to row against the past performance of others.

But the truth of it was that it was easier and faster just to link up the phone than log into and link the laptop.

Lewin

[mitchel674]

The better question is what do we gain by using RowPro?

I check the online rows every day. At best I can join 1-2 rows/week that interest me. Most times do not work for me. I prefer to row a set time (30 or 60 minutes) rather than a distance since I am slow. When the row is finished, there are a few "nice rows" or "thanks for the row" comments. Then I disconnect.

I didn't really gain much from that experience. No real interaction. Perhaps I picked up my pace a bit trying to catch everyone, but in the end, I could have just as easily set my PM5 to 30 or 60 minutes and just gone off on my own.

Jaded RowPro user who still checks the available rows every day.

[MPx]

Started using RowPro (was it) 3? around 2011. Found it ideal for me for:
Easy programming of many different sessions that I could save and use again and again
Easy upload to my C2 Log
Easier searching and reviewing of sessions than the C2 log which eg titles a 5x2k interval as a 10k row until you drill down.

I never bothered with the graphics; online rowing (no interest in racing or erging in public); or inbuilt coaching.
I used it on an old laptop running windows 7. I took a sabbatical from the erg 2013 to Oct 2016. Everything had changed on my return - UK forum and blogs gone, teams mostly migrated to Faceborg but I quickly found my way here and carried on much as before. Then I decided I wanted to upgrade my 20 year old Model C/PM3 to a D/PM5. That changed everything. Version 3.?? no longer supported. Version 5 very different with no obvious migration path. Ergdata existed and meant I could throw away a laptop and clutter from the gym. So I changed to Ergdata. The only thing I miss is the large number of different programmed sessions that I had (about 50). Obviously we all get 5 with the PM but everything else has to be re-programmed every use. It makes something like the 17 variable intervals in the AWL Pyramid a real pain. That aside Ergdata is just as good or better for me than RowPro and its just on a phone on the PM5 cradle with no wires... and is free!

[Carl Watts]

Thanks for the replies.

Obviously the smartphone has changed everything and people want easy, fast access and setup times so they can get straight onto the rowing itself.

I will admit that my hardware setup is about as complicated as it can get. Firstly I connect the ANT+ HR strap to the PM5 then I need to open Ergdata on the phone and connect to the PM5 and then I need to open RowPro and get online and join the online row. Any problems and it can be start all over again.

So basically Concept 2 should just take over RowPro and integrate the online only rowing function into Ergdata. Just sideswipe into another screen because I don't need to see any of the data showing on ErgData during the row, just the RowPro graphics and I can then dump a huge pile of hardware that includes a PC, large screen sitting on a bedside unit. ErgData has the best data to use to upload your rows to the Concept 2 logbook it includes your stroke count and drag factor which is the only reason that I use it.

Retain the myRowPro App for setting up the rows and joining them and make it real easy to join your row when your in RowPro, like practically an automatic checkin when your row falls into the 15 minute window before the start.

Clearly RowPro is still just to complex for many people to be bothered with. The live rowing is fantastic and its all I use it for but it depends on your time zone as to how many are online to row with. Unfortunately just about everyone sees it as just "Racing" only which it isn't, its perfect for training row where you state your pace before the start and stick to it.

[CJOttawa]

Late response but I"ll add my 2-cents since I gave RowPro a whirl but didn't purchase after the trial.

Most of the bases are covered in this thread and coalesce around: "friction".

If RowPro offered any compelling reason to use it - immersive graphics, lots of people to challenge, super easy to use smartphone app - people might be inclined to put up with some limitations. I can manage structured workouts using other apps and RowPro's graphics aren't compelling enough to make it entertaining.

Zwift is the elephant in the room. They've done the development work for rowing (and tested it in house) but haven't enabled it for users yet. They already support structured workouts (with tools like TrainerRoad), group rides and races. One flip of the switch to enable rowing natively and they own the market.

In the meantime, I already pay for a Zwift subscription and use RowedBiker, PainSled, or an NPE-CABLE pod to get the rower to talk to Zwift running natively on an Apple TV for entertainment value.

I like your idea, Carl, of Concept2 integrating RowPro into ErgData. To me, that's "Zwift Lite" for times when you aren't fussed about the fully immersive experience (or don't have a tablet, TV handy) but want a bit more interaction.

[Carl Watts]

Nice points thanks for your post.

Just one point. The graphics ARE Imersive once ALL 16 lanes are full this totally changes the game. The problem is just not enough users to make this happen.

Agreed that unfortunately Zwift will come along and eat Rowpros lunch if they get a native connection direct to my PC.

Funny you said Zwift lite I told Digital rowing years ago they needed a Rowpro lite in those exact words. It's been pretty disappointing they have not listened to most of my ideas.

[Rayving]

I bought RowPro a couple of years back.
In short I rarely use it, mainly because it doesn’t work well. What I mean is that it is far too time consuming getting the software to do what it’s supposed to do.
Regularly losing network connections during on line events, failure of the software to create custom workouts effectively, issues when using a Garmin device, failure to upload workouts, make the software frustrating to use. And yes these issues have been raised with RowPro, but to no avail.
A real shame, because the glossy website promotes the software as the best thing since sliced bread. For software that has been updated on a number of occasions, it remains to be one of the flakiest programmes I’ve ever had the misfortune to encounter.

[Carl Watts]

Unfortunately it's really really hardware dependandant.

Yes you can get lucky and even an old crappy laptop works fine for years but the rapid windows 10 updates eventually obsoleted my old PC as it started to have so many problems even the USB connection to the monitor became unreliable.

I came to the conclusion you need a wiz bang almost entry level gaming PC to run it. Dont be fooled by the graphics it needs some grunt to run it with absolutely no problems.

So rather than a PC I found in the rubbish skip that I spent time upgrading the CPU and plugging in moreRAM
and a graphic card I just jumped into a decent Hp Z240 with 750Ti card and 16Gb of RAM problem solved.

Probably the best advice I got from Digital Rowing was to use a PC that was designed for the OS running on it. My nature of trying to run old crap for as long as possible like getting win Xp machines running win 10 eventually failed.

[mitchel674]

Mine runs fine.

Lack of online activity remains the biggest issue. I was off work all morning today and planning to row. I was fairly flexible with my time. The only item open to join was a 2k TT. I would have been happy with most any other activity. I could have made my own, but my past experience with that on short notice is that I just wind up rowing alone.

[Carl Watts]

Actually the biggest problem is people NOT setting up a scheduled row well in advance and expecting others to set one up.

Rowed a 10K alone today at 10am local time because I only setup the row yesterday afternoon.

If you want people to join you need to setup rows as much as a week in advance. People need the forward visibility so they can plan their training. If I want to do a 10K on Saturday than means I cannot go nuts on the 30 minute on Friday as usually I take the whole weekend off for recovery.

You simply cannot wake up and post a row a couple of hours before doing it and expect others to join.

There is a huge row scheduled for Sunday July 5th at 09:00 GMT and that is now FULL with all 16 lanes taken. Would have probably joined it myself when it was up to 14 despite being 9pm local time but I'm away on Sunday.

Again the problem with that row is its a random event. If it was scheduled out weeks in advance they would need to run TWO rows to fit everyone in, those under 2:00 pace and those over 2:00 pace usually splits the field pretty much exactly in half.

[Slothful1]

Not sure how long it has been there, but on the pricing page on the DigitalRowing site there is mention of a RowPro App "coming soon". Seems like they might have finally started listening to you, Carl.

Dave

[Carl Watts]

Not sure how long it has been there, but on the pricing page on the DigitalRowing site there is mention of a RowPro App "coming soon". Seems like they might have finally started listening to you, Carl.

Dave

Not sure either Dave but it has been on the products page as coming soon for as long as I can remember at least 5 years. It was a no brainer as soon as the PM5 was released as it had Bluetooth and therefore connected easily to your smartphone.

I have seen them doing a lot of 50 meter online test rows of late so something new is coming soon.

Its do or die time for digital rowing because if Zwift got organized with a native PM5 Erg connection it's all over because there are probably already more Zwift users with a bike and an erg than there are with rowpro users with only the erg.

[CooksonS]

I still use it but it frustrates the hell out of me.

I don't care about the graphics but find it really annoying that it's so unreliable. The latest version just shuts down spontaneously a lot of the time so I get kicked out of a session I've waited hours for.

When it works it's great. Sadly it does not work very often for me.