Rowing speed vs running speed

[MudSweatAndYears]

The world indoor rowing records on a C2 are typically slower than the world records in running. More precisely, both on 5k and 10k, indoor rowing is 18% slower than running.
Now on an average week I spend much more time training for running than I spend on my C2. Yet when comparing my PBs on both activities, I am definitely faster on the C2. For both 5k and 10k my rowing is about 7% faster than my running.
So a question for those of you who also train for running: do you row faster than you run? Or am I the odd one out?

[Allan Olesen]

On the C2, your produced power is proportional to your velocity in the third power. So if you double your velocity, you have to use 8 times the power. And if you halve your velocity, you will only need 1/8 of the power.


In running, power is of course more difficult to measure. But metabolic consumption can be measured, and studies have shown that the power usage for running is closer to a linear dependency on velocity. (There is a wind component, which varies with velocity in the third power, but it only plays a minor role in your total power consumption for running.) So if you double your velocity, your power consumption will only increase to a little more than double of what it was, not to 8 times. And if you halve your velocity, power will decrease to a little less than 1/2 of what it was, not to 1/8.

To sum it up:
If you reduce your rowing power by 50%, your velocity will drop to the third root of 0.5 = 79.4% of what it was before.
If you reduce your running power by 50%, your velocity will drop to 50-60% of what it was before. Let us say 60%.

So where am I going with this?

Let us set the world class runner's velocity to 100%.
The world class rowers velocity is then 82% (you said he was 18% slower).

Let us say that your power output in rowing and running is 50% of each of these two athlete's power outputs. We can now calculate your velocities in percent of the world class runner's velocity, using the numbers above:
Your running velocity = 60% of world class runner's velocity.
Your rowing velocity = 82% * 79.4% = 65% of world class runner's velocity.

So your rowing will actually be faster than your running, even though the opposite is the case for the world class athletes.

The same is the case for me, by the way. I can also row faster than I can run.

[hobbit]

I too row faster than I run, despite being totally the wrong size and shape for rowing. My best 5k running, since turning 60, is 22:11, whereas for rowing it's 21:03 (that was a good day). For 10k running, my only effort (whilst tearing a knee meniscus) is 48:10, whereas rowing it's 43:(whatever it says below). However, I've been working much harder on my running this last few months & I think that I was getting close to 20min shape. Now I'm injured again . I hope that my running will be significantly faster than my rowing by the autumn.

Of course, the ratio between the separately optimized running and rowing records is one thing and the running/rowing ratio for one person are completely different things. I'm pretty sure that most of the beasts on this forum would have a very hard time getting anywhere near their rowing records if you put them in running shoes.

I'm still mulling Allan Olesen's interesting post. My intuition, that may be total BS, is that it's easier to be "OK" at rowing than for running, but very hard to be "very good", so the range of times for rowing is smaller than for running.

[Allan Olesen]

My intuition, that may be total BS, is that it's easier to be "OK" at rowing than for running, but very hard to be "very good", so the range of times for rowing is smaller than for running.

Not at all BS.

We can take a look at the age based world records in running and rowing. There is no reason to think that a runner should age less graciously than a rower. So if the difference between young people's world records and old people's world records is larger in running than in rowing, it is an indication that you are right.

5 km male running world record: 12:37.35 = 23.8 km/h
5 km male 60-64 year running world record: 16:06 = 18.6 km/h (79% of world record)

5 km male HW C2 rowing world record: 14:54.5 = 20.1 km/h
5 km male HW 60-69 year C2 rowing world record: 17:00.5 = 17.6 km/h (88% of world record)

So for the same age groups, the reduction in rowing velocity caused by age decline is only 12%, while it is 21% for runners.

[MudSweatAndYears]

On the C2, your produced power is proportional to your velocity in the third power [..] and studies have shown that the power usage for running is closer to a linear dependency on velocity.

That makes a lot of sense. Also explains why at world class level for the very short distances (where velocities are larger) the difference in speed between running and rowing tends to grow further apart.

This also allows me to derive a personal training prognosis. If I continue training such that I achieve a 10.5% power increase in both running and rowing, then I can expect the same PBs in both. This is because 10.5% power increase in running will deliver close to a 10.5% increase in speed. In rowing the same 10.5% power increase will deliver no more than a 10.5% / 3 = 3.5% speed increase. These two speed increases would then bridge my current 7% speed difference between rowing and running. For the 10k that would translate in a uniform PB of around 39:45 for both rowing and running. It would be great if I could achieve this in the next 12 months. If I do, I will definitely report back here...

[MudSweatAndYears]

[..]
5 km male running world record: 12:37.35 = 23.8 km/h
5 km male 60-64 year running world record: 16:06 = 18.6 km/h (79% of world record)

5 km male HW C2 rowing world record: 14:54.5 = 20.1 km/h
5 km male HW 60-69 year C2 rowing world record: 17:00.5 = 17.6 km/h (88% of world record)
[..]

That would mean rowers decline more with age than runners:

According to the figures above, a world-class 60+ year old runner delivers close to 79% of the power required for a world record, while a world-class 60+ year old rower delivers only 0.88^3 = 68% of the power required for a world record. If rowers and runners would decline similarly in aerobic power, you would need an exponent close to 1.6 in the power-velocity relationship for running.

[Allan Olesen]

That would mean rowers decline more with age than runners:

According to the figures above, a world-class 60+ year old runner delivers close to 79% of the power required for a world record, while a world-class 60+ year old rower delivers only 0.88^3 = 68% of the power required for a world record. If rowers and runners would decline similarly in aerobic power, you would need an exponent close to 1.6 in the power-velocity relationship for running.

You have to remember that the 40% velocity reduction with 50% power reduction was an assumed number, intended to show how the mechanism works. So don't try to build too much math on that number.

[hjs]

[..]
5 km male running world record: 12:37.35 = 23.8 km/h
5 km male 60-64 year running world record: 16:06 = 18.6 km/h (79% of world record)

5 km male HW C2 rowing world record: 14:54.5 = 20.1 km/h
5 km male HW 60-69 year C2 rowing world record: 17:00.5 = 17.6 km/h (88% of world record)
[..]

That would mean rowers decline more with age than runners:

According to the figures above, a world-class 60+ year old runner delivers close to 79% of the power required for a world record, while a world-class 60+ year old rower delivers only 0.88^3 = 68% of the power required for a world record. If rowers and runners would decline similarly in aerobic power, you would need an exponent close to 1.6 in the power-velocity relationship for running.

Reality is the opposite, you seldom see a still good 50 year old runner, but top 50 year old rowers are still pretty fast. I would say rowing is age friendly, running much less so. Bit like cycling, can be done very long.
Likely the factor plays an important role here.

[suttle]

I'm coming at this issue from a very specific perspective. I've just acquired a C2, and have no real experience, other than a few gym workouts 20 odd years ago. I'm 65 and a half decent runner - can still knock out a sub 22 5k. I've got a bit of upper body strength (pull-ups etc) but I am cursed with being a short-arse, with particularly short arms and legs. I'm about 143lbs.

I'm a bit disappointed at my initial times on the C2. Years ago I just dipped below 8 mins for 2K; now I'm 9.40. (Incidentally, nowhere near my running time which would be about 8.15.)

So my questions are

1. what would be a 'good' time for 2k for a bloke of my vintage (or at least rival my running time)

2. what training would I need to do to get there?

And as a PS, are there any age grade calculators out there? (e.g. for running there is a calculator that measures your performance against the world record for your age).

Thanks for any advice!

[hjs]

I'm coming at this issue from a very specific perspective. I've just acquired a C2, and have no real experience, other than a few gym workouts 20 odd years ago. I'm 65 and a half decent runner - can still knock out a sub 22 5k. I've got a bit of upper body strength (pull-ups etc) but I am cursed with being a short-arse, with particularly short arms and legs. I'm about 143lbs.

I'm a bit disappointed at my initial times on the C2. Years ago I just dipped below 8 mins for 2K; now I'm 9.40. (Incidentally, nowhere near my running time which would be about 8.15.)

So my questions are

1. what would be a 'good' time for 2k for a bloke of my vintage (or at least rival my running time)

2. what training would I need to do to get there?

And as a PS, are there any age grade calculators out there? (e.g. for running there is a calculator that measures your performance against the world record for your age).

Thanks for any advice!

First, take a look at the c2 rankings. That will give you an idea.

Second, being smaller is absolute a disadvantage, no way to get around this. But there are lightsweight, sub 75kg, who pulled below 6 minutes.

Third, if you are a decent runner, I think nothing will stop you in also becoming a decent rower. Think you will rapidly improve, your fitness is good, but specific strenght is what you lack.

Read around on the forum. In general though, first focus on good technique. Use a full, long stroke, with a low enough drag, not high! Keep the stroke smooth.
Trainingwise, go for longer session, and use a calm strong stroke. Compared to running, strenght is more important on the rower. This will take some time, but the early gains will come pretty fast.

[MudSweatAndYears]

Reality is the opposite, you seldom see a still good 50 year old runner, but top 50 year old rowers are still pretty fast. I would say rowing is age friendly, running much less so. Bit like cycling, can be done very long.
Likely the factor plays an important role here.

The point made by Allan Olesen is that rowing is like cycling (and unlike running) in that you need to put in a disproportionate increase in power in order to make a small gain in speed. In comparing across sports you should therefore focus on power, and not on speed. The reality is, alas, that there is no single 60+ year old rower who manages to reach 70% of the power required for a world record performance. Top runners of age 60+, however, do manage to reach 70% of world record power levels (although admittedly power is more difficult to quantify in running).

Probably rowing is less age friendly when compared to running, as it relies more on sheer strength. And strength fades with age more rapidly than endurance.

[hjs]

Reality is the opposite, you seldom see a still good 50 year old runner, but top 50 year old rowers are still pretty fast. I would say rowing is age friendly, running much less so. Bit like cycling, can be done very long.
Likely the factor plays an important role here.

The point made by Allan Olesen is that rowing is like cycling (and unlike running) in that you need to put in a disproportionate increase in power in order to make a small gain in speed. In comparing across sports you should therefore focus on power, and not on speed. The reality is, alas, that there is no single 60+ year old rower who manages to reach 70% of the power required for a world record performance. Top runners of age 60+, however, do manage to reach 70% of world record power levels (although admittedly power is more difficult to quantify in running).

Probably rowing is less age friendly when compared to running, as it relies more on sheer strength. And strength fades with age more rapidly than endurance.

I don,t think Alans point is valid. For running an increese in speed takes just as much extra power/energy as in any other sport. There is no free lunch.

I look at the numbers. I seldom see a runner 50 year plus who still runs good. It most of the time is pretty horrible and slow. 50 year old rowers are often still pretty fast.

Re strenght. Wr 500m sprint on the rower is 1.13 guy was 54 years old (and died one year later, for full info.) only a handfull of rowers ever pulled such a time.
I don,t think strenght does go down faster, but older people don,t train strenght. And other point, to train strenght you need to have healthy joints, if not training strenght is difficult.

The reason I think older people both run so poorly and get weak is joint related.

For myself, can,t run at all anymore, reason injury’s and jointtrouble. On the rower I can still put a decent amount of effort in the chain. And relative speaking even more on the shorter stuff. N=1 but still.

[MudSweatAndYears]

[..] are there any age grade calculators out there? (e.g. for running there is a calculator that measures your performance against the world record for your age).

For age 65 Steve Krum's result (6:35.3 for 2k) seems to be the gold standard: https://log.concept2.com/rankings/detai ... dual/93439

But rather than comparing against world record times, it is perhaps to compare against median times in your age bracket and your weight class. Lightweight rowers aged 60 - 69 for the season 2019 - 2020 had a median 2k time of 7:39.4.

[mict450]

And other point, to train strenght you need to have healthy joints, if not training strenght is difficult.

The reason I think older people both run so poorly and get weak is joint related.

For myself, can,t run at all anymore, reason injury’s and jointtrouble.

Words of wisdom here! Wish I had been kinder to my joints when younger. How true, "Too soon old, too late smart".

[suttle]

I too row faster than I run, despite being totally the wrong size and shape for rowing. My best 5k running, since turning 60, is 22:11, whereas for rowing it's 21:03 (that was a good day). For 10k running, my only effort (whilst tearing a knee meniscus) is 48:10, whereas rowing it's 43:(whatever it says below). However, I've been working much harder on my running this last few months & I think that I was getting close to 20min shape. Now I'm injured again . I hope that my running will be significantly faster than my rowing by the autumn.

Of course, the ratio between the separately optimized running and rowing records is one thing and the running/rowing ratio for one person are completely different things. I'm pretty sure that most of the beasts on this forum would have a very hard time getting anywhere near their rowing records if you put them in running shoes.

I'm still mulling Allan Olesen's interesting post. My intuition, that may be total BS, is that it's easier to be "OK" at rowing than for running, but very hard to be "very good", so the range of times for rowing is smaller than for running.

Hi hobbit,

I'm not dissimilar to you in many ways. although I outweigh you by 20lbs, stare down at you from 5'6" and am 65. I'm a 22 min 5k runner (20:20 PB at 61, never to return) but suspect that I couldn't get anywhere near your stats on the erg. I'm assuming that at some point you went from running to rowing. Have you any tips to transform my current 9 minute plus 2k to something nearer to 8 (20 years ago I dipped under 8 - once!). Cheers.