Is Erging Inferior To On Water Rowing

[old] jprisbrey · Post by **[old] jprisbrey** » August 30th, 2004, 7:26 pm

I'm not an on-water rower, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but it seems that the difference people notice between on-water and the erg is due to on-water's increased lateral instability compared to the erg. It seems to me that the erg could be modified to increase its lateral instablity and make it even more like on-water rowing. Perhpas this would be as simple as modifying the front and rear supports to allow the rower's body to rotate around its axis (like some sort of lathe). -- Jeff

[old] Roland Baltutis · Post by **[old] Roland Baltutis** » August 31st, 2004, 12:42 am

I have been doing cross country skiing, on water rowing and C2 erging for some 20 years now and enjoy them all. I just completed a 42 KM cross country ski race last Saturday and have never experienced the same muscular pain and levels of oxygen debt, in indoor or on water rowing, as I did in that XC ski race. If your looking for the best overall fitness then cross country skiing wins easily. Cross country skiers are the fittest athletes in the world (they have recorded the highest V02 Max scores of all athletes tested at Australian Institute of Sport). I find rowing easier on the body than cross country skiing but nevertheless it still provides a very satisfying workout. As I can do both forms of rowing all year round choosing between the two on some days is very difficult for me. C2 erging wins points for being the most convenient and offers the best method for measuring workouts, especially if you use Rowpro & Ergmonitor computer software. It also offers international online racing which is a side I really enjoy. However, from my 20 years of rowing there is one thing that really sticks out to me about on water rowers. Most of them hate doing ergos and will only do them when forced by their coaches. Futhermore, the percentage of the on water rowing population attending erg races or actively involved in erging is very small. Why do most on water rowers hate doing ergos? That I'm unsure of because both are equally painfull to do at high intensity. I guess on water rowing wins because of the teamwork aspect and feeling of movement over water. Plus the scenery is constantly changing which prevents boredom. None of these sports on their own will give you huge muscles but rather a lean well toned body. The overall limiting factor which determines how good your workout will be is technique. Cross country skiing requires by far the most technique training and needs years of training to reach elite level. Closely followed by on water rowing. Erging easily requires the least technique training to reach elite level and is adopted by gym rats that want to be good at a sport quickly. Despite the above pros and cons I enjoy doing all three and could not possibly pick a favourite. Keep it smooth, keep it relaxed Roland Baltutis

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » August 31st, 2004, 4:25 am

Well, Roland, although I've never practiced cross-country ski, I do know some things: a - oarsmen have, in average, a Vo2 max superior to xc skiers; b - their aerobic and anaerobic power is much superior: have ever read about their muscular composition (aerobic/mythocondrial capacity, lean body mass, etc., etc.)? As to strength, maybe we should compare them to weigthlifters (although we had to introduce some correction factors, based on limbs size), not xc skiers - I know some 67 kg oarsmen, as lean as possible, that lift 300 kg on a leg press, or 100 kg bench-pulls - with long arms and legs. I'm sure xc ski is a thrilling sport, but I do not believe you get a superior workout than if you were rowing.

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » August 31st, 2004, 5:14 am

Jeff, I think you got the point! One of the great differences between on-water and erg rowing is the muscular work made by the on-water rower to stabilize his shell (somewhat, although more complex, like the difference between using machines or free-weights in weigthlifting). Nevertheless, there is an issue in on-water motion that cannot, at this subject, be reproduced on an erg, for a simple reason: you do not grab levers and press and pull it through the water... in a racing shell, that is the main item, when it comes to stabilize the boat - oars! You do not stabilize the boat with your body, that's a common mistake; you do that by keeping the oars at the same level - in and out of water; this will require, during the drive, mainly, a great deal of muscular intervention.

[old] Roland Baltutis · Post by **[old] Roland Baltutis** » August 31st, 2004, 7:55 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (remador @ Aug 31 2004, 03:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well, Roland, although I've never practiced cross-country ski, I do know some things: a - oarsmen have, in average, a Vo2 max superior to xc skiers; b - their aerobic and anaerobic power is much superior: ......... I'm sure xc ski is a thrilling sport, but I do not believe you get a superior workout than if you were rowing.  </td></tr></table> Can you please back up these claims with some references please as I can't agree with you entirely on these points. The A.I.S have tested athletes from all sports and cross country skiers consistantly come up with the higher V02 Max scores. Comparing anaerobic power between the two is a little more difficult. Skating technique requires more anaerobic power than traditional diagonal stride technique in XC country skiing because no grip wax is used to get up hills. Hence a lot of upper body strength is utilised to propel up a hill. It is very similar to locking onto the water with your oar and sending the boat away. Cross country skiers are similar in build to lightweight rowers and likewise have very good power to weight ratios. As for aerobic capacity, you are definitely wrong on that one. I have been involved in both sports for some 20 years now, at a very high level, and should be qualified enough to pass judgement on that score. A higher aerobic capacity is certainly required more for cross country skiing than rowing. Rowing still rates very highly but cross country skiing is even higher. Trust me, I've placed my body into oxygen debt in these sports often enough to know which one is worse. Keep it smooth, keep it relaxed Roland Baltutius

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » August 31st, 2004, 10:02 am

Well, you may get some data in [URL=http://home.hia.no/~stephens/rowphys.html] I know several other - better- sites, but I can' remember their addresses now. About the related-to-body-weight values of VO2 the author speaks about, you should ignore them, as you stated cross-country skiers are the fittest athletes of all - so, there is no room but to absolute values: rowers win... About strength, anaerobic power, etc., I read hundreds of articles allready, but I don't have them with me, now. Just for fun, read [URL=http://www.concept2.com/update/F2001/hagerman.html] I would also like to say that subjective impressions are not objective data, so I can't count on your personal experience - I was trying not to get too "technical", but you started it... One more thing: you said you've made a 42 km trial and it was very demanding - did you ever made a 42 km trial in a single-scull? Or ever get that bad in a 2km xcountry skiing? Please don't think I am being rude, I just like to discuss things for a while...

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » August 31st, 2004, 11:42 am

More interesting data: <a href='http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs285/pd ... maries.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs285/pd ... /a>

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » August 31st, 2004, 1:19 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (remador @ Aug 31 2004, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> More interesting data: <a href='http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs285/pd ... maries.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs285/pd ... ies.pdf</a>  </td></tr></table> Who wrote that? Lot's of typedexia. - Paul Smith

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » August 31st, 2004, 1:32 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jacobavera2 @ Aug 25 2004, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> if you get in a real rowboat say wood or aluminum and row hard for 15 or 30 min your stomach will hurt for 3 days.  </td></tr></table> Are these fixed seat rowboats you are talking about?

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » August 31st, 2004, 1:39 pm

Perhaps we should note there's a lot of difference between Langlauf and rowing. Cross country skiing is done (at least where I live) at over 1000 m altitude and better still 1500 if you want cold snow, a typical short race is 10km (½ hour?) and you keep going up and down hills all the time. In the most interesting event they also have to carry a rifle, and stop every 2500 km, take a few deep breaths, and then do some shooting. Rowing is not like that: flat, much nearer sea level and the classic 2k race is max 10' even for me rating 19. Given these differences it wouldn't be surprising to find skiers have a very large O2 transport capability - they sure need it.

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » September 1st, 2004, 4:03 am

Yes, PaulS, the man (or woman) should be a bit nervous...

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » September 1st, 2004, 5:51 am

Given these differences it wouldn't be surprising to find skiers have a very large O2 transport capability - they sure need it. James, I think that, unfortunatelly, rowing events tend to be just the regular 2km - mostly because of the cost, in time, money, etc., of doing more (lots of boats for each category, etc.). However, doing a 2km test or race does not mean, as we all know, that we don't make 2 hours workouts... anyway, I would like to see more diversity! Of course altitude has an influence on aerobic capacity - and, in the case, that is not sport specific, since you can row above 1000 m... Speaking more seriously, I think there is something else that is more interesting, here: in the rowing motion, pression over the rower's chest and the need to contract breathing muscles to stabilize the trunk and balance the overall movement let not oarsman breathe as they would probably need, given the amount of muscle mass they are using, and the intensity of muscular effort. I would say this is one of the reasons for rowing's particular toughness - being really above normality.

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » September 1st, 2004, 11:48 am

About, XC skiing and erging. There is a XC skier in Sweden, Per Elofsson who has won three world championships. He weighs 75kg and has been measured to have a absolute VO2 Max of 7.0 liters! (don't know if it was while skiing but probably). Very very close to the world record when scaled by weight (elofsson 93, wr 94). Since he is a lwt it would be _very_ interesting to see what kind of time he could pull on an erg if he decided to go for it for a month or so. I believe the very best lwt rowers barely have 6l of VO2 max. Elofsson wouldn't get 7 liters out on the erg for sure...but more than 6? Guess we'll never know? =( Anyway, given Tuftes XC-skiing and olympic gold rowing and Elofsson ability to get 7l VO2 max at 75kg, XC-skiing is one of the best complementary trainings one can do.

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » September 2nd, 2004, 6:08 am

Well, we are all discussing the sex of angels... - VO2 max is mostly determined by genetics! In fact, I would like to know from which kind of population xcountry skiers are usaully extracted; maybe families living in great altitudes? Anybody who knows?

[old] Roland Baltutis · Post by **[old] Roland Baltutis** » September 2nd, 2004, 8:00 am

Remador, The following may interest you as a comparison of V02max test results from various sports: Table 1: Average Maximal Oxygen Uptakes of Team National Athletes (Maximal uptake in athletes, B. Saltin & P. Astrand, Journal of Applied Physiology, V 23 #3: 353-358, Sept., 1967. Event Men Cross-country Skiing 82 Running 3000 meters 79 Speed Skating 78 Orienteering 77 Running 800-1500 meters 75 Bicycling 74 Biathlon 73 Walking 71 Canoeing 70 Downhill Skiing 68 Running 400 meters 67 Swimming 66 Ski Jumping 62 Rowing 62 Gymnastics 60 Table Tennis 58 Fencing 58 Wrestling 56 Weight Lifting 55 Untrained 43 Although these may be old test results at least they give some indication of comparisions between various sports. If anyone can find more recent V02max test results I'd be most happy to see them. Keep it smoth, keep it relaxed Roland Baltutis

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