Training more but getting slower/not improving

[CharlieV453]

Hi there. I've been rowing for about 5 years now starting at the age of about 12 at my local club and an now recently turned 16. Only the last 2 and a bit years have been taken seriously with good, competitive results and a fair few wins. However I've been noticing a clear drop in my performance over the past 4 ish months.

For example with my 2k as a good baseline, about a year ago I think I pulled a 6:38.9 at 74kg which I was over the moon with. Then in November I pulled a 6:40.1 @ r24 for the J18 GB trials which I was a bit miffed with to start as wasn't sub 6.40 but ended up feeling really happy with. However, for the J16 GB trials which ended up being changed to an erg test due to weather, I pulled a 6:36.4. While this was an improvement, yes, between the two free rate 2k's quite a few things had happened. My technique had improved, I'd been training much more than the previous 3x a week, with more volume and intensity as what we had been doing was quite lack luster and I had also put on 6kg in weight aswell as becoming leaner through height growth.

I've been training a fair bit on the erg at home and the bike doing sprint's and a fair bit of long distance stuff to substitute for the lack of training we do for fitness at the club. Our typical erg session is 8x250m with core in the rests which seems a stupid idea to me for no benefit (this in head season mind) which was the main basis of fitness and all erg work at the club.

Back in November when the J18 GB trials were held and before that, I was feeling good, ergs weren't fun and they hurt but I was pleased and satisfied with my results and was proud of them generally. I did no much training, most of it low quality but still performed pretty well all things considered. I'm just lost and frustrated with all the work I'm putting in now and how hard I'm trying to see little to no improvement, if anything I'm going backwards. Now I feel demoralised, slow and like I'm being left behind which is not what I want to feel like and I want things to go back to how they were. The only thing I remember doing more of was weights before I started going downhill. I was in the gym 3/4/5x a week with my friends as is usual of boys that's age and happy with the results I was making there. However I do comparatively little of that spending the majority of time on the erg or bike now. My muscles don't seem to have wasted away at all as I've been using them most days in the week bar a rest day but I just don't seem to be making the results I want anymore.

On a side note we don't have a training program. My coach just does what he fancies 3x a week and we go along with it. That's why I've been doing extra work at home. I felt like before hand I was doing comparatively no training to some of the big guns in my age category and we were still coming out on top and was excited to see what doing real training could bring. Now I'm unsure and confused by it all, despite all the effort, I feel worse, slower, not making any progress and being left behind and have had a bit of a fall from grace.

Does anyone have any ideas about whats going on and how to fix it?

Thanks, Charlie

[hjs]

Charley, you don,t tell what you actually do. So difficult to comment now.

In genereal, rowing is about building a strong stroke and a good aerobic engine. This means do longer sessions, at lower rates. At ut2 pace mostly. Which would be roughly 2k plus 18/22

Go for 10k, if possible more.

Shorter faster stuff won,t do much in the longer run, those are usefull close to racing season, but not for building your base.

[Dangerscouse]

Hi Charlie, what sessions are you doing on your own? Are you doing enough long steady sessions? They may seem boring but they are what progress is built upon, along with a variety of pace / rates and intensities.

Is there any way you can all ask your coach to add some structure to his programme, or at least some progression?

Have you read The Chimp Paradox by Dr Steve Peters? Well worth your time if you haven't, as I think at least some of your problem is your perception of what is happening / hasn't happened so far. Getting control of your inner chimp (emotional side of your brain) will be a great start to getting all of your mind pulling in the same direction.

[max_ratcliffe]

Another aspect is that the closer you get to being in tip top condition, the harder it is to maintain that year round. Top athletes periodise to peak at the right time. Henry (hjs) would be able to tell you much more than I can, but as I understand it, the real elite have an entire schedule mapped out for them with a four year cycle for when they will peak, with mini-peaks along the way for annual important races and so on.

Fatties like me, OTOH don't really suffer vagaries of form in the same way because we are very undertrained.

Your times are very good (although you have the misfortune to be the same age as Isaiah Harrison, who is from the planet Krypton).

Without wanting to diss your coach, at the level you're already at, you should have a proper plan, not just do whatever your coach thinks of on a whim.

[jamesg]

The only thing I remember doing more of was weights before I started going downhill. I was in the gym 3/4/5x a week with my friends

Could there be a cause-effect relationship? What did you do there?

From what one reads, strengthening works by damage > repair > growth > increase of muscle fibre, while endurance increases via cell growth which is forced by loading. If so, this suggests it will be tricky to combine the two, since to improve endurance we would have to use the muscle that was damaged yesterday and today is under repair. No idea if this is too simplistic, but overtraining is not particularly complex.

I've also read that 16 is too young for weights, since growth and some bone structures are not yet complete and joint surfaces risk damage. In any case, waiting can do no harm. You'll be rowing for at least another 8 years.

When I rowed at school we did no weights at all, just the outing and a sprint to the end of the road and back, about 800m. All schools were more or less equally fit, but style wins races. See PE 2018.

[max_ratcliffe]

The only thing I remember doing more of was weights before I started going downhill. I was in the gym 3/4/5x a week with my friends

Could there be a cause-effect relationship? What did you do there?

From what one reads, strengthening works by damage > repair > growth > increase of muscle fibre, while endurance increases via cell growth which is forced by loading. If so, this suggests it will be tricky to combine the two, since to improve endurance we would have to use the muscle that was damaged yesterday and today is under repair. No idea if this is too simplistic, but overtraining is not particularly complex.

I've also read that 16 is too young for weights, since growth and some bone structures are not yet complete and joint surfaces risk damage. In any case, waiting can do no harm. You'll be rowing for at least another 8 years.

When I rowed at school we did no weights at all, just the outing and a sprint to the end of the road and back, about 800m. All schools were more or less equally fit, but style wins races. See PE 2018.

Any traumatic joint injury can damage the epiphyseal growth plates, but you're only going to get that type of injury in the weight room if you're pretty unlucky or pretty daft. Skiing or playing football with your mates is much more likely to cause an injury. I think I've read reports of premature ossification caused by steroid use, but again, I'm not sure if that is confirmed (it would be a small sample, and you'd really need lots of identical twins ( or triplets? - one lifts, one lifts and takes PEDs and one doesn't do either) to get to the bottom of things there!).

But James definitely has a point. If you want to be a top class athlete, you probably shouldn't be just throwing weights around with your mates (lots of bicep curls?). You need your programme to be properly balanced and thought through by a coach.

[CharlieV453]

Charley, you don,t tell what you actually do. So difficult to comment now.

In genereal, rowing is about building a strong stroke and a good aerobic engine. This means do longer sessions, at lower rates. At ut2 pace mostly. Which would be roughly 2k plus 18/22

Go for 10k, if possible more.

Shorter faster stuff won,t do much in the longer run, those are usefull close to racing season, but not for building your base.

Been focusing recently on the UT2 side of things. Longer 2 or 3 x6k or hour and a half sort of distances. Don't do much short sprint's really as of the moment

[CharlieV453]

Hi Charlie, what sessions are you doing on your own? Are you doing enough long steady sessions? They may seem boring but they are what progress is built upon, along with a variety of pace / rates and intensities.

Is there any way you can all ask your coach to add some structure to his programme, or at least some progression?

Have you read The Chimp Paradox by Dr Steve Peters? Well worth your time if you haven't, as I think at least some of your problem is your perception of what is happening / hasn't happened so far. Getting control of your inner chimp (emotional side of your brain) will be a great start to getting all of your mind pulling in the same direction.

I've started over the past 2 weeks doing much longer sessions but at a far reduced intensity at UT2 sort of level after I had been doing it all at UT1 I think. Not sure how to build the variety into them so I'm just watching films/videos while I do them.

Coach is a parent of one of the rowers but despite my attempts there isn't much I can do it seems so I've taken matters into my own hands.

The chimp paradox sounds like a good idea. I've heard things about it but never gotten round to it but seeing the current state of affairs I should have plenty of time. I do seem to get stuck inside my head especially given how things are with no chance to see friends or crew mates

[Dangerscouse]

I've started over the past 2 weeks doing much longer sessions but at a far reduced intensity at UT2 sort of level after I had been doing it all at UT1 I think. Not sure how to build the variety into them so I'm just watching films/videos while I do them.

Coach is a parent of one of the rowers but despite my attempts there isn't much I can do it seems so I've taken matters into my own hands.

The chimp paradox sounds like a good idea. I've heard things about it but never gotten round to it but seeing the current state of affairs I should have plenty of time. I do seem to get stuck inside my head especially given how things are with no chance to see friends or crew mates

A good way to add variety is to change stroke rates e.g. 18/20/22/20/18 and to try and get absolute consistency for each split (that makes the time go faster)

[CharlieV453]

The only thing I remember doing more of was weights before I started going downhill. I was in the gym 3/4/5x a week with my friends

Could there be a cause-effect relationship? What did you do there?

From what one reads, strengthening works by damage > repair > growth > increase of muscle fibre, while endurance increases via cell growth which is forced by loading. If so, this suggests it will be tricky to combine the two, since to improve endurance we would have to use the muscle that was damaged yesterday and today is under repair. No idea if this is too simplistic, but overtraining is not particularly complex.

I've also read that 16 is too young for weights, since growth and some bone structures are not yet complete and joint surfaces risk damage. In any case, waiting can do no harm. You'll be rowing for at least another 8 years.

When I rowed at school we did no weights at all, just the outing and a sprint to the end of the road and back, about 800m. All schools were more or less equally fit, but style wins races. See PE 2018.

Most of my time in the gym was just general strength and muscle building. Not rowing specific just 3x10 reps on most of the machines there which wasn't tonnes.

That makes sense to me. I find it quite hard to balance tho two because I'm tired from one when I'm doing the other and then vice versa. Could be overtraining as you suggested.

I see your point but it's normal to start weights at 14 or 15 here. With all the private schools and big clubs starting way before it's sort of necessary to keep up at this point in time. There's quite a big difference size wise and fitness between clubs. Ours is pretty small with no programme so we're at a considerable disadvantage with it all and quite undersized even compared to younger rowers but still seem to do alright especially when we have our A boats out.

[CharlieV453]

But James definitely has a point. If you want to be a top class athlete, you probably shouldn't be just throwing weights around with your mates (lots of bicep curls?). You need your programme to be properly balanced and thought through by a coach.

Agreed there. Wasn't just biceps but a general body workout so fairly rounded and evenly balanced. Felt happier back then tho and was doing better considering my size and amount of training than I am now.

That's the issue tho. I don't have access to a coach who will sit down and set up a plan but I am thinking of moving clubs in the next academic year possibly to better myself and my rowing.

[CharlieV453]

A good way to add variety is to change stroke rates e.g. 18/20/22/20/18 and to try and get absolute consistency for each split (that makes the time go faster)

Ok I might try that then every 5 or 10 minutes say

[dknickerbocker]

what did your training ramp up look like when you started adding in more volume of erging? Did you just jump right into 1.5 hour pieces? and what did it look like before?

Reason i ask is, you often have to increase length of pieces and/or total volume gradually. Just because it feels easy when you first sit down on the erg, or it's slow so you think it "should" be manageable, it doesn't always work that way. A rule of thumb can be, if you do a longer easy session the day before a hard session, and you find that it impacts the quality of your hard session (like you're more tired and you can't go as hard as normal), then it was too much.

Relatedly: how much have you been resting? A caveat to teh above rule of ramping up gradually is that you CAN intentionally overload; i.e., do objectively unsustainable training, but you need to be prepared to handle it, and you need to follow it with at least a couple days (and maybe up to a week) of rest or easy training to let your body absorb it. Remember that the training is stress--you subject your body to more than it can handle, and it compensates by rebuilding itself stronger, building a new, stronger homeostasis so that next time it can handle that stress. But it needs rest in order to rebuild! An example of an intentional overload period is a training camp. You intentionally overdo it, and you need to take time off afterwards to actually reap the benefits. This is "adaptation" vs. just "recovery." I think of recovery as meaning, how prepared are you to go hard again tomorrow. There's a time and a place for that. Adaptation is your body actually building to a new, stronger level. They're not the same thing.

The other reason i ask about rest is that often when people say i'm training more but i'm getting slower, there's an issue with their rest.

Finally: as other posters have noted, it's critical to take a long-term view. The increased volume and/or frequency of easy trainings will benefit you greatly in the long term but you will not see it immediately. You're gradually building up things like capillary density to your muscles, even though you're training easy these adaptations will help you at every duration, and you can train for years and years and years before fully maxing them out, but it happens so, so gradually.

Be patient! You're in a great spot. ALso remember, at your age, everyone's body develops differently and at a different pace. Don't worry about what other dudes are doing, just worry about what's the best approach for YOU. If you do, the results will come.

[CharlieV453]

what did your training ramp up look like when you started adding in more volume of erging? Did you just jump right into 1.5 hour pieces? and what did it look like before?

Reason i ask is, you often have to increase length of pieces and/or total volume gradually. Just because it feels easy when you first sit down on the erg, or it's slow so you think it "should" be manageable, it doesn't always work that way. A rule of thumb can be, if you do a longer easy session the day before a hard session, and you find that it impacts the quality of your hard session (like you're more tired and you can't go as hard as normal), then it was too much.

Relatedly: how much have you been resting? A caveat to teh above rule of ramping up gradually is that you CAN intentionally overload; i.e., do objectively unsustainable training, but you need to be prepared to handle it, and you need to follow it with at least a couple days (and maybe up to a week) of rest or easy training to let your body absorb it. Remember that the training is stress--you subject your body to more than it can handle, and it compensates by rebuilding itself stronger, building a new, stronger homeostasis so that next time it can handle that stress. But it needs rest in order to rebuild! An example of an intentional overload period is a training camp. You intentionally overdo it, and you need to take time off afterwards to actually reap the benefits. This is "adaptation" vs. just "recovery." I think of recovery as meaning, how prepared are you to go hard again tomorrow. There's a time and a place for that. Adaptation is your body actually building to a new, stronger level. They're not the same thing.

The other reason i ask about rest is that often when people say i'm training more but i'm getting slower, there's an issue with their rest.

Finally: as other posters have noted, it's critical to take a long-term view. The increased volume and/or frequency of easy trainings will benefit you greatly in the long term but you will not see it immediately. You're gradually building up things like capillary density to your muscles, even though you're training easy these adaptations will help you at every duration, and you can train for years and years and years before fully maxing them out, but it happens so, so gradually.

Be patient! You're in a great spot. ALso remember, at your age, everyone's body develops differently and at a different pace. Don't worry about what other dudes are doing, just worry about what's the best approach for YOU. If you do, the results will come.

Before i started taking training really seriously I was doing the very short erg sessions and usually about 10 k on the water, 5 easy and 5 as a piece back. Jumped into about 2 or 3 x6k when I got my own erg and doubled the number off sessions. I can't remember how much rest I was taking but am now on 1 day off a week and tempted by two. Then recently when I listened to a podcast on polarised training recommending 90mins plus on the erg in one go started that the next day which may not have been the brightest move. I'm not a total idiot tho I promise aha. However I do believe I started doing these workouts at a true ut2 level and my sits dropped by about 15 seconds to something strenuous but easily mangeable for prolonged periods. Doing my decent mileage before hand at ut1 at ut2 volumes may have led to overtraining when it should have been used as a recovery/aerobic base work.

I've heard things about 3 week blocks of training. Starting with 1 easy week, followed by a medium level week and then a high intensity week which would go hand in hand with the idea of the planned overload to help you adapt and change with time but previously every week had been the same probably moderate to high difficulty week which isn't sustainable long term and might explain the decline in performance

Patience is unfortunately not one of my virtues no matter how hard I try for it to be. I always want to see my results as soon as possible as afterwards but the current situation would give me time to not have to stress about seeing results, despite the increase of ergs and numerical data

[max_ratcliffe]

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Patience is unfortunately not one of my virtues no matter how hard I try for it to be. I always want to see my results as soon as possible as afterwards but the current situation would give me time to not have to stress about seeing results, despite the increase of ergs and numerical data

What do we want? More patience!
When do we want it? Now!

Yeah, look this won't quite work with someone your age, but the best approach for people with a few more miles on the clock who are daunted by a long timeframe is to look backwards instead of forwards. Imagine someone who is told that they need to lose, say, 25kg for their health, and they should take a year to do it. If they project forwards, it just seems too long. But if you ask them where they were a year ago, and say "if you'd started this programme [or whatever] in April 2019, you'd already be at your target weight", it can make things a bit more digestible.

Perhaps you might be able to use that to your advantage (or risk tying yourself in mental knots imagining how you will be looking back in two years' time).

Or this approach might help:

Imagine yourself as an 18yo pulling 6:16 (your target may be different, but humour me...). You need to get faster by 1 second/month. If you workout 20 times a month, each workout has to contribute 0.05s. Now I don't of course mean that your progress will be linear quite like that, but that's how gradual your progress can be and still achieve great things.