Suspension And Acceleration

[[old] ranger]

As a result of my recent work on technique, I am now really getting the suspension on the handle and constant acceleration of the chain that is the major mark of a strong, efficient stroke.<br /><br />Noticed something odd today, though.<br /><br />I _used to_ think that suspension on the handle was exclusively a result of the engagement of the legs at the catch, and therefore was only evident there; but perhaps because I am now nicley accelerating the chain with my back and arms, too, I was noticing today that, really, my body is now suspended on the handle _throughout_ the drive. My rear is really off the seat from catch to finish.<br /><br />Is this right? Or am I overdoing it?<br /><br />BTW, I have also noticed lately that chafing, blistering, soreness, and other maladies of the rear that I used to get pretty regularly from training on the erg have disappeared entirely. I suspect this is exactly a result of this complete suspension on the handle from catch to finish that I am now getting. I am no longer on the seat during the drive, so no chafing or blistering can occur because my rear and the seat are no longer in contact during the most stressful moments of the stroke!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] SimonB]

Hi <br /><br />Excuse my ignorance. What exactly do you mean by 'Suspension' can you define it as it's not something I have either experienced or heard of. ( or I have experienced it, but did not realize) .<br /><br />Thanks

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Feb 19 2005, 10:03 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Feb 19 2005, 10:03 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was noticing today that, really, my body is now suspended on the handle _throughout_ the drive. My rear is really off the seat from catch to finish.<br />Is this right? Or am I overdoing it? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />There is some information <a href='http://www.rowingqld.asn.au/Documents/Bio200205.pdf' target='_blank'>here</a> about seat forces. I would think that based on the dynamics of the system, you would want some amount of suspension (reduction in seat forces) during the drive. And while the increase of seat force at the finish should regain the power lost to the handle from the upward component of force at the catch, I would think that this is an imperfect recovery of power and there is some limit to the amount of upward force you would want at the catch.<br /><br />I have worked to achieve some level of suspension during the drive but as a novice, I am not sure where the limit should be (although when I lift off and slide on the seat, it is too much).<br /><br />My answer to the question would be "As long as you are staying on the seat with some part of your weight, you want to be "off the seat" as much as you can during the drive."<br /><br />I'm interested to hear others opinions on this.<br /><br />Steve

[[old] SlugButt]

You are a happy man - there's nothing like the feeling of hangin' on the handle through the stroke. The only possible problem is that the rest of life may seem bleak and unfulfilling in comparison.<br /><br />David

[[old] ninthman]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Feb 19 2005, 11:03 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Feb 19 2005, 11:03 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a result of my recent work on technique, I am now really getting the suspension on the handle and constant acceleration of the chain that is the major mark of a strong, efficient stroke.<br /><br />Noticed something odd today, though.<br /><br />I _used to_ think that suspension on the handle was exclusively a result of the engagement of the legs at the catch, and therefore was only evident there; but perhaps because I am now nicley accelerating the chain with my back and arms, too, I was noticing today that, really, my body is now suspended on the handle _throughout_ the drive. My rear is really off the seat from catch to finish.<br /><br />Is this right? Or am I overdoing it?<br /><br />BTW, I have also noticed lately that chafing, blistering,  soreness, and other maladies of the rear that I used to get pretty regularly from training on the erg have disappeared entirely. I suspect this is exactly a result of this complete suspension on the handle from catch to finish that I am now getting. I am no longer on the seat during the drive, so no chafing or blistering can occur because my rear and the seat are no longer in contact during the most stressful moments of the stroke!<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've always wondered about this, too. If I'm going good at a low rate, with good power, my <i>tuchus</i> is off the seat for a significant length of the drive. It's not anything that's conscious, just something I've developed after doing a few million meters of SS erging. When I was coaching, I never knew whether to tell my athletes to strive for this or not.<br /><br />My guess would be that it's less than ideal for your butt to actually lift off the seat. Since it goes up, it has to come down, and that would drive the shell into the water (somewhat), and waste energy in waves. Suspension without creating a gap between rear and seat is probably best.

[[old] PaulS]

That's a h*** of an hour for a coxie! Nice! <br /><br />While this suspension between the handle and footplate is going to happen, the attempt is to maintain the driving force on a horizontal plane, actually two of them, one at foot level and one at handle level, the difference between those must be connected through the other body structures and this creates a lot of variables that we try to control the best we can.<br /><br />If you come completely off the seat, the seat will not be under you when you come back down, this is not a good thing, and even though Mr. Caviston came back to win his race after doing just that, I doubt that he will make it standard practice in the future. <br /><br />On the water there is another variable to be concerned with and that is the energy that will go into making waves as the bodyweight that was lifted comes back down onto the seat, causing the boat to "bounce" instead of run smoothly. The timing and sequence of effort must be conducted in such a way that the weight transfer is smooth throughout the drive, a quick lightening on the seat in the early drive followed by a continuous transfer back onto the seat by the release.<br /><br />The fun drill in a boat: Come up to the catch, plant the blade and drive yourself to a standing position, ride the handle and boat back to the normal finish position. You only get to do one of these since your seat will still be at the frontstops instead of under your bum. Oh, and please don't damage your equipment by trying this if you are unsure about what is going to happen.

[[old] Beaver]

If you come completely off the seat, the seat will not be under you when you come back down, this is not a good thing, and even though Mr. Caviston came back to win his race after doing just that, I doubt that he will make it standard practice in the future. <br /><br />I can attest to that, since it also happened to me at the CRASH B's. With the clock running, it's not cool to be sitting on the rail with the seat under yourknees <br />My tailbone and ego are healing.

[[old] jamesg]

RC,<br />Seat lift-off is due to the vertical component of the stretcher thrust. This thrust from an engineer's point of view is contrasted by our weight (vertical) and the arm pull (horizontal), together representing a classic force triangle. <br /><br />Your paces (guessing your height) show that your handle force is almost equal to your weight. So lift off is to be expected, given the angle of the foot-shoulder line. If you feel the lift-off effect all the way to the finish, then your handle force is staying high.<br /><br />Just what Newton would suggest: a long steady force will deliver more acceleration than a short hard impulse. Even if, I'd add, our bodies may think they've done the same amount of work.<br /><br />Edit. Forgot to note: if the lift-off is too much, we can always raise our feet so long as there's no adverse effect on other aspects of the stroke.

[[old] ranger]

Thanks for all of the comments, folks. I'll chew them over.<br /><br />I don't mean that I lose contact entirely with the seat. I just mean that I don't really have any weight on it to speak of. I never fall off the seat, etc., or are in any danger of this. <br /><br />I _do_ feel a significant difference in this lift now, though, and am happy about it. <br /><br />This is one thing that I don't think was possible for me rowing at high drag, or at least, when I was rowing at high drag I didn't notice it. The weight at the catch was too much and the chain didn't really accelerate the way it does for me now at low drag. Everything was slowed down and turgid. <br /><br />Keeping the chain accelerating at low drag demands quite a different set of levers than the big heave off (and then truncated finish) I used to do at high drag. I have been two years now building these levers. I think I might finally have the muscular equipment I need. <br /><br />Now I can train more normally.<br /><br />BTW, for me, the difference in force between a stroke with good suspension and acceleration done at low drag and one that is just a weight-lifter's heave ho done at high drag is about 4 SPI (i.e., 45% more power!). When not under external demands of some sort, my stroke at high drag used to pull along naturally at 9 SPI or so; under the same conditions now it does 13 SPI. <br /><br />Nice.<br /><br />Now I just need to keep training it up to speed.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-SlugButt+Feb 19 2005, 11:14 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Feb 19 2005, 11:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are a happy man - there's nothing like the feeling of hangin' on the handle through the stroke.  The only possible problem is that the rest of life may seem bleak and unfulfilling in comparison.<br /><br />David <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br /><br />ranger

[[old] cityeast]

I think I have an idea: Velcro strips on the seat (the "rough" side strips). <br /><br />They will easily latch to your lycra and ensure you never come of the seat, from 500m sprints to marathon efforts.<br /><br />You can suspend of the handle as much as you like, and as you have no weight over the seat, the prickly nature of the strips will cause you no discomfort whatsoever. Should you begin to feel such irritation, then you are obviously losing the technique and you must increase handle suspension once again. <br /><br />Well, good in theory... <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

You could attach a bungee to the back of the seat, slide forward for recovery, then the bungee pulls the seat again to the back-most position.<br /><br />This way the seat will always be there for you to "land" on at the end of the drive.

[[old] bsemaiktehr]

Yeah - but that would give you an (albeit small) advantage on your stroke strength (depending on the cord)