Childish behavier.

[jackarabit]

How did I do it ? I'm not telling anyone the secret is safe and yes it still did still involve me actually rowing and its highly unlikely that anyone else in the world can replicate it.

Carl, you implied more than once in this forum that your familiarity with PM ops would allow you to nudge the thruput of the gizmosis toward a verifiable but fake result. Done it now have you? And you can’t imagine there being anyone who can replicate your fiddle? My guess is there are atm 100 schoolboys under the age of 12 in NZ alone capable of doing exactly that or worse. Best be mindful of low ceilings.

[Allan Olesen]

I did this to attract attention to a problem that is easily solved that I'm sick of discussing to have fixed, seems its working.

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

You are pissed that people can post fake results in the challenges. You want C2 to fix this by only allowing verified results. And consequently, you faked some results to raise attention.

Did I get that right?

I am not opposed to what you did. But posting your results as verified seems incredibly counterproductive to your cause, because:

Why would anyone at C2 bother to implement a requirement for only allowing verified results, when you have just proven that those are not trustworthy either.

[Dangerscouse]

I did this to attract attention to a problem that is easily solved that I'm sick of discussing to have fixed, seems its working.

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

You are pissed that people can post fake results in the challenges. You want C2 to fix this by only allowing verified results. And consequently, you faked some results to raise attention.

Did I get that right?

I am not opposed to what you did. But posting your results as verified seems incredibly counterproductive to your cause, because:

Why would anyone at C2 bother to implement a requirement for only allowing verified results, when you have just proven that those are not trustworthy either.

This was going through my head today too and a very salient point

[Carl Watts]

Sorry guys but I did actually have to row this to get the results.

Yes I did this to make a point because just chatting on here for years has been a waste of time.

I simply exploited vulnerabilities in the system and using electronics knowledge and 10 years of repairing the monitors as well as being able to deliver high power at low ratings to do it.

It has not happened before because its not easy to do. The math in the monitor is smarter than I initially thought.

Rather than be part of the problem be part of the solution, get the verification system working for the Challenges for those that want to compete on a level playing field. Its no different to racing, just because a totally different group of people participate in the challenges the results need to be respected just the same.

Don't see the problem with being at the top of the rankings anyway, after all i'm just kidding myself right ? Thats what everyone says about the people at the top of the challenges that could be cheating. Hey its not like there is a Gold medal handed out each season or any money in it either so why would anyone get upset ?

Anyway many people at the top of the rankings cannot prove they are not taking drugs anymore than I can prove I found my new rowing outfit in a public phonebox.

Get the Challenges sorted and I will e-mail Concept 2 on how I did it. There is a very quick and easy way to stop it happening using already available technology currently in use. Have a think about it.

[Carl Watts]

Some of you guys hung up on your rankings position cannot see the bigger picture, had I not changed my profile to make a point about the Challenges, none of you would have been able to even question my results.

The whole point of this is to draw attention to fixing the Challenges by the introduction of verified only rows for those of us that verify all our rows and want to be compared against only others that are also verifying their rows. I'm not interested in people who say they are rowing hundreds of KM's a day, they can carry on with the others in the bullshit results section if they are not prepared to verify it.

If I wanted to "cheat" I could have kept on "cheating" for years to come and none of you would have been any the wiser.

Did you not look at the graphs ? pretty much perfect if you ask me all that is missing is my 300bpm heart rate curve.

Fix the Challenges, strengthen the verification system, its in everyone's best interest.

This is only one reason I hacked the monitor and one reason only.

[Ombrax]

I'd imagine that if this keeps up and becomes obviously widespread (is it already ???) and there's no simple way to ensure quality in the rankings, then (a) we'll either have to live with the potential doubt (although with PEDs out there we've already been doing that, to some extent) or (b) only performances that are done in officially recognized public competitions will be accepted.

I guess C2 will have to decide how they want to handle it. (Unless they've already chosen (a) and are going stick with that.)

Personally, I don't really care - I barely ever look at the rankings, and only compare my efforts to myself.

[Allan Olesen]

Get the Challenges sorted and I will e-mail Concept 2 on how I did it. There is a very quick and easy way to stop it happening using already available technology currently in use. Have a think about it.

Nope. Can't be fixed now. Your actions have broken the concept of verified results for ever.

Nobody will ever trust verified results again, no matter if C2 repairs the specific hole you happened to exploit. People will just start looking for other ways of faking a verified result, now that you have proved it possible. I have already thought out 3 different ways of doing it mechanically since your original post.

[Anth_F]

You'd have to be a proper saddo to use that other than to prove a point that the verification system can be gamed. In fact, you have to be a proper saddo to exploit it as Carl has done.

Exactly lol.

Wtf is the point of all this twaddle. Does it help you sleep better at night knowing you just entered/ranked a load of BS results to your training log!!!

[CaseyClarke]

Carl is absolutely correct. I’ve been arguing a similar point on Facebook for years.

Having unverified rankings is absolute nonsense. Anyone can enter anything just to get to the top of the board. Good thing you can filter those results out. I only ever go by verified times when I’m looking at the boards. Unverified’s just as well not even be there.

Doesn’t completely solve the issue as there are still ways to cheat the system, but this eliminates the possibility of an entry input error or some bored troll topping the rankings.

Accumulated metre challenges are far harder to police. I wouldn’t mind at all if they were verified only metres, but then what’s to stop me flicking through the memory on the gym rower and stealing everyone else’s rows to add to my own?!

As for how to cheat the machines?! I know the BikeErg and SkiErg can easily be rigged just by throwing a towel over the flywheel and cutting off all the air, which then disrupts the calculations. I can generate sub 1:10 splits for the effort of about 2:30 pace on both my bike and skier just by doing this. Haven’t tried it on the rower yet.....

There’s also another way of cheating that I just remembered where you can get the same easy sub 1:10 splits for the effort of no more than 2:30 pace. I don’t know the specifics but something to do with deliberately assigning your PM to the wrong C2 model upon set up. I’ve read at least a couple of threads about it on here, as well as seen an incorrectly performing monitor in a gym I used to visit.

[Carl Watts]

Accumulated metre challenges are far harder to police. I wouldn’t mind at all if they were verified only metres, but then what’s to stop me flicking through the memory on the gym rower and stealing everyone else’s rows to add to my own?!

Nothing but like I said if you have a totally open LogBook it starts to look obvious. Also I'm not sure how good the verification is on time stamping the rows at the start AND the finish but obviously if it was doing it and checking it, it becomes impossible to row on two machines at the SAME TIME so if any of the rows overlap in real time its not possible for one person to accomplish. Multiple distances a day, different ratings and paces look suspicious anyway. Those people that should be at the top of the leader board have a very structured way of doing the distance. The only way for gym rows to be verified is entering the 16 digit verification code manually for each and every row so good luck with entering all that, rows at the gym are a mess and short stuff like the 2K row or less and 99% of people use "Just Row" which doesn't get stored in the PM memory to start with.

As for how to cheat the machines?! I know the BikeErg and SkiErg can easily be rigged just by throwing a towel over the flywheel and cutting off all the air, which then disrupts the calculations. I can generate sub 1:10 splits for the effort of about 2:30 pace on both my bike and skier just by doing this. Haven’t tried it on the rower yet.....

Doesn't work if you have an open LogBook you can see on the graph the rating going all over the place with HUGE spikes because the monitor is unable to calculate the drag factor.

There’s also another way of cheating that I just remembered where you can get the same easy sub 1:10 splits for the effort of no more than 2:30 pace. I don’t know the specifics but something to do with deliberately assigning your PM to the wrong C2 model upon set up. I’ve read at least a couple of threads about it on here, as well as seen an incorrectly performing monitor in a gym I used to visit.

Doesn't work for the same reason above. The graph is all over the place.

The verification system can be fixed pretty easily. 99% of the problem goes away the second you remove the manual entry "ADD WORKOUT" which doesn't even need a verification code !!! If your going to keep the manual entry it MUST have a verification code. I think the argument that I only have a PM1 or PM2 that doesn't generate the code is getting a bit old, the PM2 ceased production in 2003, its time for you to buy a new PM5 and get with the times and stop pissing other people off.

Concept 2 is already using a system that is unhackable that can be used across the board for everything. My recommendation is they use it for people like me who want to use it. This combined with anyone with an open logbook, because lets face it they have nothing to hide right ? solves the problem. Its going to happen eventually anyway if you like it or not, the rankings are already way cleaner than they were even a few years ago with the majority of people now verifying their rows.

I pushed for that verified filter option in the Rankings and it happened. Its time to sort the Challenges out the same way. From a software implementation point of view its very easy to do so when you look at the individual standings you can just hit the same filter.

Also setup one verified only meters challenge a year so if you don't have a PM3, PM4 or PM5 your OUT and cannot enter it.

[DavidA]

I don't think it would be difficult to change, but at the moment one can only verify distances/times for the ranking distances/times. So, for instance, when I did my 50 k a month or so, I got the verification code from my machine, but I can't verify the row in the logbook, because 50 k isn't a ranked distance.

David

[jackarabit]

I don't think it would be difficult to change, but at the moment one can only verify distances/times for the ranking distances/times. So, for instance, when I did my 50 k a month or so, I got the verification code from my machine, but I can't verify the row in the logbook, because 50 k isn't a ranked distance.

David

I know for a fact that Erg Data sync to logbook will verify unrankable times and distances, interval workouts, and even just rows. IIRC, V-code will do the same. BICBWrong.

[macroth]

99% of people use "Just Row" which doesn't get stored in the PM memory to start with.

Pretty sure it does get stored. That's how you end up with all those random short pieces in the memory at the gym.

Doesn't work if you have an open LogBook you can see on the graph the rating going all over the place with HUGE spikes because the monitor is unable to calculate the drag factor.

What graph? There isn't a graph unless you're using Ergdata.

The verification system can be fixed pretty easily. 99% of the problem goes away the second you remove the manual entry "ADD WORKOUT" which doesn't even need a verification code !!! If your going to keep the manual entry it MUST have a verification code.

I log my warmups, cooldowns, CTCs and most non-ranking pieces manually, without a verification code because there's nothing worth "verifying". Don't see why I should be forced to use Ergdata or add a code for every training row.

I pushed for that verified filter option in the Rankings and it happened. Its time to sort the Challenges out the same way. From a software implementation point of view its very easy to do so when you look at the individual standings you can just hit the same filter.

Also setup one verified only meters challenge a year so if you don't have a PM3, PM4 or PM5 your OUT and cannot enter it.

This I agree with.

[jackarabit]

I pushed for that verified filter option in the Rankings and it happened. Its time to sort the Challenges out the same way. From a software implementation point of view its very easy to do so when you look at the individual standings you can just hit the same filter.

Also setup one verified only meters challenge a year so if you don't have a PM3, PM4 or PM5 your OUT and cannot enter it.

This I agree with.

As do I. Verify, filter, eschew megalomania!

[Yankeerunner]

I pushed for that verified filter option in the Rankings and it happened. Its time to sort the Challenges out the same way. From a software implementation point of view its very easy to do so when you look at the individual standings you can just hit the same filter.

Also setup one verified only meters challenge a year so if you don't have a PM3, PM4 or PM5 your OUT and cannot enter it.

This I agree with.

As do I. Verify, filter, eschew megalomania!

Moi aussi! (That makes 3 Forum Flyers)