New to erg, what is your average/peak force?

[jamesg]

So it begs the question... Has anyone formulated a bracketing system for the SPI rating?

Not quite sure what that means. However a stroke that lets us start to train at low ratings might have length 60% of height and average force 60% of a fit weight.

Those numbers would require a beginner oarsman of height 1.8m and weight 80 kg (BMI 25) to pull a stroke worth 1.8 x 80 x 0.36 x g Nm; which at rating 20 would be 170 Watt, with stroke work 8.5.

As he weighs 80 kg, this is just over 2 W/kg. Racing at 40 he will be required to pull a slightly harder stroke, say 9.5, so he would develop 40 x 9.5 = 380 Watts, pace 1:37, not a bad start for a beginner.

Later on the factor 0.36 (= 0.6 x 0.6) might increase to 0.7 x 0.7, say 0,5, so 235 W at rate 20 (3W/kg) and 500W at 40.

The range 2 to 3 W/kg (with kg refered to BMI 25) will likely bracket low rate training for most.

[Allan Olesen]

One of the ideas of high SPI at low SPM is that such a rower will have developed the strength to keep the same SPI at a much higher SPM.

That could be one way of looking at SPI. One could also look at it the opposite way:

Use SPI to make sure that you do the same work per stroke in training as you would in a race.

That is effectively what the L4 sessions in the Wolverine plan are based on, though that plan was developed by feel rather than watts and SPI. If you calculate the SPI from the L4 training tables, you will see that all stroke rates have an SPI, which is roughly equal to 2k race SPI, assuming that the race was done at 32 SPM.

[dontmindsarno]

OP here, sorry for the delay. Here is the video people have requested. It is me just rowing on the concept2. After I made the video I looked at a youtube video someone shared on how to push more with the legs, I think my force curve looks a bit better but still not great.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bgu9w ... O0VyJagWrO

[NavigationHazard]

One of the ideas of high SPI at low SPM is that such a rower will have developed the strength to keep the same SPI at a much higher SPM. The fact of the matter is that is seldom true. For example, when I see that a season best time is done at say 10 SPI and 20 SPM [200W] that pretty much confirms my point. Why isn't a season best being posted at say 30 SPM and 10 SPI [300W] ?
....

It's never true, at least for any meaningful duration. There are several interconnected factors. One is that the power requirements quickly get out of hand as the rating goes up. For example:



That a hypothetical rower can produce (say) a stroke at 300w at 20 strokes/minute [1:45 pace; 15 spi] does not necessarily imply s/he can produce (say) 450w at 30 strokes/minute [1:32 pace; 15 spi] Let alone (say) 600w at 40 strokes/minute [1:23.6 pace, 15 spi]. Or 750w at 50 strokes/minute [1:17.6 pace; 15 spi]. Etc. Even for one or two strokes, at some point you must run up against the upper limits of your strength. For most rowers it's sooner rather than later.

Moreover, given a constant spi, as rating increases you have to take more harder drives faster. In particular, recovery times shrink as rating increases. At 20 strokes/minute a full stroke cycle takes 3 seconds. For purposes of argument, assume a drive of 0.7 seconds. That gives you 2.3 seconds of recovery. At 30 strokes/minute, the full stroke cycle takes 2 seconds. Given a constant drive duration, you get 1.3 seconds of recovery. At 40 strokes/minute you get .8 seconds of recovery. This degrades your ability to sustain the necessary muscle contractions.

Put the increasing wattage requirements together with the shrinking recovery times and it's easy to see why constant spi can't be maintained over time.

15 spi at 20 strokes/minute is 1:45 pace, i.e. a 7:00 2k. 15 spi at 30 strokes/minute is 1:32 pace, i.e. a 6:08 2k. 15 spi at 40 strokes/minute is 1:23.6 pace, i.e. a 5:34.4 2k that would break the current open 2k world record.

IMO there's something to be said for using spi as a rough metric for training load. But only if the duration and type of workout in question are being considered as well.

[hjs]

OP here, sorry for the delay. Here is the video people have requested. It is me just rowing on the concept2. After I made the video I looked at a youtube video someone shared on how to push more with the legs, I think my force curve looks a bit better but still not great.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bgu9w ... O0VyJagWrO

You are overthinking it way to much. Rowing is mostly hard work. That means you can,t talk during training, apart from a word here and there.
You have one big flaw in your technique. Instead of keeping your lower back flat, you keep your whole back flat. This will cost energy.
Re legs, versus, trunk/arms. Nomatter what, all power goes via your hands into the chain. So yes, the legs do a good bit of work, but this can only happen if the back arms can hold and support that work. Rowers hands are very rough, and thats not from the work they are not doing.

You drag is NOT 4.5, the setting is on that number. The drag can be anything depending on the cage. And will change over time. Drag will be a number between 100/220 on a new machine.
Given your current fitness/strenght, lower the drag to 110 orso.

[jamesg]

Here is the video

All you need do is relax and pull faster using the legs, leaving the recovery slow.

To do this, lower your feet so that you can swing forward and get your weight on them at the catch, with a stronger posture.

If you use Watts, you can see results instantly. Keep the rating low, otherwise your strong legs will overload your CV system a bit too soon.

[Cyclingman1]

OP here, sorry for the delay. Here is the video people have requested. It is me just rowing on the concept2. After I made the video I looked at a youtube video someone shared on how to push more with the legs, I think my force curve looks a bit better but still not great.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bgu9w ... O0VyJagWrO

You don't really row like that? You are so wooden with complete stops in your form that this cannot be real. You seem to be so worried about correct form that your form is ridiculous. Get some smoothness and continuity.

[uk gearmuncher]

SPI is energy per stroke. The unit is wattminutes per stroke. If you consider wattminutes an odd energy unit, multiply it by 60, and you get joule.

So SPI * 60 = Joule per stroke.

It is a fully valid calculation. (Speaking as an engineer who does energy and power calculations as my dayjob.)

Likewise. I was working off the premise though that someone said in this thread that its was watts divided by stroke rate top provide the index value but I was thinking about the trees and not the wood - you're obviously right. Stating it purely as energy expenditure would be more 'correct' than as an index which gives the appearance of double counting. Thanks for clarifying this - good call.

[uk gearmuncher]

To me it's meaningless.

For the majority my training I've used pace, rate and HR, I wouldn't have a clue what pace relates to Watts and couldn't be bothered to work it out.

Erg'ing has the advantage over other sports (like cycling and running) that its relative immune from external weather factors which means you can use other data like pace and for that still to be comparably useful (it isn't in most other sports). I also personally abandoned HR use in most sports I do years ago. Power is pretty absolute and is a measure of raw output whereas HR is really one of input or response. As I'm from cycling, I use a lot more training zones and power is more helpful with that.

If you're interested in power though Concept 2 does have a calculator here though: https://www.concept2.co.uk/indoor-rower ... calculator

[ampire]

OP here, sorry for the delay. Here is the video people have requested. It is me just rowing on the concept2. After I made the video I looked at a youtube video someone shared on how to push more with the legs, I think my force curve looks a bit better but still not great.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bgu9w ... O0VyJagWrO

I think you have the proper idea/concept of what good form should be, for a guy that is a total beginner, but the execution is off. However, as noted, your body is too stiff, and you simply don't have much leg power. I think the stiffness is your beginner attempt at breaking the movement down into basics while avoiding injury, which is admirable but also inefficient. You need to move from that towards having a smooth, powerful, fluid stroke.
Here is a very good example of form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE663Kg0c00

With your current strength being quite low, a lower drag factor might be a good idea, it looked like you had trouble reaching and holding flywheel cruising speed. Try drag factor 100. I am rowing most of my workouts on 100, I am not as fast as some here, but it hasn't held back my performance on my recent 5K at 1:53 pace.

Also, it looks like part of it to me is you should sit a bit more forward on the seat, this might be due to the thick pad you have.
This might help with the seat setup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ljah4cmIhQ

[mitchel674]

You need a more explosive push with your legs at the start of your drive. Your stroke looks like a leisurely walk in the park.

Lower your drag factor and watch your force curve.

This video really gets into it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo

[Anth_F]

I agree with what the guys above have said... you lack leg power right now and need more snap in the drive.

Rowing is hard, especially in the beginning. The body needs a good amount of time to adapt to this type of exercise, especially since you're using your entire body continuously.

Maybe start doing squats and pushups, this will certainly help for rowing strength.

[uk gearmuncher]

Maybe start doing squats and pushups, this will certainly help for rowing strength.

Just to add to this, be aware that low speed muscle contraction or exercise execution isn't the best way to develop high speed activity. Try and keep what you're training as specific as you can for it's intended sport. You well find something like plyometrics to be a better fit for your needs (jumps, bounds, etc). There is increasing debate about the execution and value of weight training (with respect to performance) in endurance sports.

[Anth_F]

Maybe start doing squats and pushups, this will certainly help for rowing strength.

Just to add to this, be aware that low speed muscle contraction or exercise execution isn't the best way to develop high speed activity. Try and keep what you're training as specific as you can for it's intended sport. You well find something like plyometrics to be a better fit for your needs (jumps, bounds, etc). There is increasing debate about the execution and value of weight training (with respect to performance) in endurance sports.

Depends on your execution of performing!! If you perform squats like i do with a weighted backpack on using explosive motions away from the ground it mimics the drive on the erg with additional resistance to overcome. You can apply the same strategy to pushups as well. Slowly come down to ground then explode up. The OP is lacking general strength anyway so incorporating anything at this point will prove beneficial.

[ampire]

Kettlebell might be also good for cross training, but depends on his history of back issue.