Intervals: 8x500 V. 16x250

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Zatopek used a somewhat unusual interval combination: he ran relatively short repeats, often no more than 400m in length, but instead of blazing through these relatively short interval distances at high speeds, he ran them at close to his lactate-threshold velocity, ie well below both 10k and 5k race speeds (3)."<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, exactly. When I do 500s in a 40 x 500m Zatopek routine, after each interval, the relatively mild pace combined with the relatively long rest allows my heart rate to return to the 120s bpm. Each interval is then short enough and mild enough in pace to keep my heart rate under my anaerobic threshold (172 bpm). Result: no severe lactate build up despite the 20K of rowing at 2K + 2. The effect of the workout, then, is muscular habituation rather than CV stress. <br /><br />I repeat this claim: Muscular habituation in rowing is _very_ important. As I understand these things, this is the function of UT2 and UT1 rowing. As Alan underlines, it is really this quality _foundational_ muscular and CV training that separates accomplished rowers from the run of the mill. The run of the mill rower cheats the foundation of their training and proceeds much too quickly to fast (unaccomplished) training in (so-called) preparation for (unaccomplished) racing. <br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People have acheived far greater results using more traditional methods -- so why all the pomp and noise about these types of training methods?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, I suppose we will see about this as time goes by.<br /><br />Training isn't everything. Technique is also important. I have been doing superior training, I think, but I have needed to improve my technique. That is what I have done over the last couple of years. When my technique is in place, I will return to my normal training. Then we will see what "greater results" have been produced with other training methods. <br /><br />What "greater results" are you referring to? I am waiting for a 55-year-old lwt to row 6:10 (or whatever), but it doesn't seem to have happened yet. Why not?<br /><br />At the moment, 6:28 is the fastest a 52-year-old lwt has ever rowed, and I rowed this with poor technique. With better technique, I think the limits of my potential at 55 years old and beyond, given my training methods, are 6:16. We'll soon see if I am right about that.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One afternoon [in the spring of 1964], Ryun completed four sets of 10x 440 yards, the idea being to finish the repeat and interval jog in three minutes. Ryun ran the first set of repeats at 71-second-per-quarter pace, the second and third sets at 69 pace, and the final set at 67....    [Later that year] he was racing well enough to have a shot, albeit slight, at making the U.S. Olympic team. That meant training even harder. He moved onto Timmons' farm for six weeks and did workouts like 20 x 440 in 62.5 seconds.... </td></tr></table> -- <a href='http://www.angelfire.com/rock/running/e ... tion6.html' target='_blank'>Jim Ryan Story</a><br /><br />The first of the two workouts described above conforms to the idea of lots of intervals considerably slower than race pace. It conforms to my understanding of Zatopek's basic training method. And let me say as a one-time track athlete, 40 quarters in flats on a cinder track -- plus interval jogs -- is one Mother of a base-endurance workout. <br /><br />The second interval workout is much closer to Ranger's idea of intervals at or close to race pace (Ryun was a 4-min miler at the time, so race pace was +/- 60 sec/ quarter). <br /><br />I bring them up to suggest that <br /><br />1) very high-rep interval workouts a la Zatopek have been used successfully by other elite track athletes, e.g. Ryun, who presumably were/are not insane; <br /><br />2) even the Ryuns of the world drop the pace when they increase the number of intervals; <br /><br />3) when the Ryuns of the world increase their training speed and approach race pace, they drop the number of intervals.<br /><br />I leave it to others to debate whether this admittedly anecdotal evidence from track applies to the sorts of interval workouts that are the ostensible point of this thread.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Alan Maddocks+Feb 16 2005, 11:33 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alan Maddocks @ Feb 16 2005, 11:33 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ranger,<br /><br />I have no qualms whatsover with the rowing training you are employing. As you say, most people on this forum ignore the foundational / conditioning quality of lower spm work. <br /><br />As not doubt you are aware, Arthur Lydiard transformed middle / long distance running in the 1960s with his emphasis on 'marathon conditioning'. <br /><br />His principles are still followed by the most successful runners. The less successful runners usually try to short-cut the process by doing more so called 'quality' training at the expense of the training that builds the base. <br /><br />In rowing, the most successful rowers (@ international standard) row up to 200,000 metres per week, the vast majority of which for most of the year is at low spm. building up technique & power. Exactly what you have been doing!<br /><br />Alan. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Alan--<br /><br />Yes, the Zatopeks are exactly Lydiard-like "marathon" training. <br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Feb 16 2005, 05:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Feb 16 2005, 05:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One afternoon [in the spring of 1964], Ryun completed four sets of 10x 440 yards, the idea being to finish the repeat and interval jog in three minutes. Ryun ran the first set of repeats at 71-second-per-quarter pace, the second and third sets at 69 pace, and the final set at 67....    [Later that year] he was racing well enough to have a shot, albeit slight, at making the U.S. Olympic team. That meant training even harder. He moved onto Timmons' farm for six weeks and did workouts like 20 x 440 in 62.5 seconds.... </td></tr></table> -- <a href='http://www.angelfire.com/rock/running/e ... tion6.html' target='_blank'>Jim Ryan Story</a><br /><br />The first of the two workouts described above conforms to the idea of lots of intervals considerably slower than race pace. It conforms to my understanding of Zatopek's basic training method. And let me say as a one-time track athlete, 40 quarters in flats on a cinder track -- plus interval jogs -- is one Mother of a base-endurance workout. <br /><br />The second interval workout is much closer to Ranger's idea of intervals at or close to race pace (Ryun was a 4-min miler at the time, so race pace was +/- 60 sec/ quarter). <br /><br />I bring them up to suggest that <br /><br />1) very high-rep interval workouts a la Zatopek have been used successfully by other elite track athletes, e.g. Ryun, who presumably were/are not insane; <br /><br />2) even the Ryuns of the world drop the pace when they increase the number of intervals; <br /><br />3) when the Ryuns of the world increase their training speed and approach race pace, they drop the number of intervals.<br /><br />I leave it to others to debate whether this admittedly anecdotal evidence from track applies to the sorts of interval workouts that are the ostensible point of this thread. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Fast track intevals, being heavily percussive, are much more damaging than fast intevals in things like swimming and rowing. No, I wouldn't do 40 x 400m at 62 seconds in a track workout. Zatopek didn't do this either. He slowed these intervals down to reduce the damage and ran in Army boots on soft surfaces (in the woods) to avoid muscular damage. <br /><br />These types of workouts are entirely possible in swimming and rowing, though. No damage whatsoever. Just benefit.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] Almostflipped]

Correct me if I'm wrong here Ranger, but you use this as a base training SS piece? When I sat and thought about it, the piece struck me more as a highly intense AT piece. Given the drop in your HR during rest, does the avg HR/pace come closer to SS or AT? <br /><br />I'm also curious about your implentation of it in your training schedule. As a guess, I would think this workout is saved for a max week within your schedule, and possibly followed with a day or half day or rest. Perhaps it could even be used during a supercomp. In your experience is this line of thinking correct?

[[old] Dickie]

<!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 16 2005, 05:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 16 2005, 05:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fred, until somebody can defend this workout with more than heresay and second hand stories, I reserve the right to doubt it's effectiveness. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Progress at last, this is a reasonable response, I also have my doubts although I don't regard this as hearsay any more than I regard what you or anyone else on this board says as hearsay.<br /><br />Just remember that training methods are always evolving. What is regarded as 'idiotic' today may be the training of choice tomorrow, we won't know for sure until it is proved or disproved on the playing field.<br />

[[old] slo_boat]

I think that Ranger's comments about habituation make a lot of sense. I'll offer two examples. <br /><br />When I used to powerlift, one of the biggest factors in learning to squat heavy weights was the "fear" of standing under a heavy bar. There was an almost overpowering sense of impossibility that came with lifting a heavy bar off the rack. The solution was to do tiny movements with amounts way above the max lift amount. The lifts made no difference physiologically, but mentally, they made the heavy weights seem lighter.<br /><br />When I cycled, I used to ride for long distances at an easy touring pace. I was very fit, and even trained with intervals and did short time trials just for fun. It never occured to me to ride long and fast until I began racing. When I first started racing, it was not a matter of whether I could physically maintain the pace over the distance, it was a matter of whether I mentally maintain the work load. It was some time before I was mentally able to do workouts that I was physically able to do.<br /><br />If that is at all what he means by habituation, then I think he is right.<br /><br />

[[old] GeorgeD]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Feb 17 2005, 11:45 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Feb 17 2005, 11:45 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, the Zatopeks are exactly Lydiard-like "marathon" training. <br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe in volume Ranger, but I assume you are not implying pace or style. Lydiard was not a big believer in doing AT until maybe 8 - 10 weeks before racing and to quote an article I have (which I have no reason to doubt and can supply anyone intersted):<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Phase III – Anaerobic Development (4-5 weeks) <br />You may have developed your aerobic capacity to the maximum extent practicable but you still cannot race well without developing lactic acid tolerance. This requires interval/repetition work. Lydiard say this is essential to race well but this phase is far less important than the base building phase. Lydiard is amazed at the effort that coaches meticulously devote to coming up with complex and even esoteric interval workouts such as ascending ladders, descending ladders and even ascending and descending ladders in the same workout. All the while they have totally neglected the core base building phase. Lydiard says American high school and college coaches are the most notorious offenders. Lydiard says what you do for interval work is not important at all as long as you are doing it. <br /><br />In this phase Lydiard recommends doing intervals/repetitions 2 or 3 times a week, speed work such as repeat 100s 1 or 2 times a week and one medium length easy distance run and one easy long run once a week. According to Lydiard you cannot continue aerobic development while simultaneously doing hard anaerobic work. Therefore mileage degreases significantly from the base building phase to about 50 miles per week initially and continues to decrease from this point onward. Here the focus is on lactic acid tolerance and speed development. To maintain your aerobic base you will be doing only 2 distance runs per week including one long run. <br /><br />Lydiard says that restraint is critical during this phase. You are still 6 to 12 weeks away from the big race. Lydiard says don’t push too hard too soon or you could peak too soon and not high enough. Gradually increase the intensity over several weeks and you will peak when it counts the most and the peak will be higher. Also Lydiard says the number of intervals and any target times are just a guide. Go until you feel you have had enough for that day. In general, the total distance of the intervals should add up to be approximately equal to your goal race distance or a little longer. The recovery should be a jog that takes about as long as the interval took to run. In general longer intervals are done earlier in this phase and shorter ones later. Do not race these intervals or ever go to afterburners. As Lydiard says, "Train, don’t strain". </td></tr></table><br /><br />regds George

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Ranger--<br /><br />Would you pls clarify:<br /><br />Have you recently done the Zatopek workout of 40 x 500 or are you discussing a hypothetical workout?<br /><br />When doing this workout, do you follow a strict regiment re pace and rest, or do you take breaks or additional rest according to how things feel?<br /><br />Is this workout done at 2k pace (1.37) as you mentioned in one post?<br /><br />Or is this workout done at a "mild" pace, as you mentioned in a later post, after Mr. Starboard...etc noted that The Real Mr. Z did his intervals slower than 10k pace?<br /><br />What are the facts of the workout, absent any judgments about its value.<br /><br />Tom<br /><br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Feb 17 2005, 12:51 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Feb 17 2005, 12:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ranger--<br /><br />Would you pls clarify:<br /><br />Have you recently done the Zatopek workout of 40 x 500 or are you discussing a hypothetical workout?<br /><br />When doing this workout, do you follow a strict regiment re pace and rest, or do you take breaks or additional rest according to how things feel?<br /><br />Is this workout done at 2k pace (1.37) as you mentioned in one post?<br /><br />Or is this workout done at a "mild" pace, as you mentioned in a later post, after Mr. Starboard...etc noted that The Real Mr. Z did his intervals slower than 10k pace?<br /><br />What are the facts of the workout, absent any judgments about its value.<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As everyone knows, I have been working on changing my technique over the last two years or so, so no, I haven't been doing Zatopeks for a while. In my foundational rowing, I have been rowing strapless and low rates, high power, and moderate paces over long distances. As I mentioned, I will return to doing Zatopeks soon, though, once my new stroke is full trained. <br /><br />The Zatopeks are not hypothetical, though. With my old stroke, I did the workouts exactly as I have described them here; and I did them with various interval distances: 250m, 500m, 1K, etc. At that point, my 2K pace was 1:37 and my 5K pace 1:43. Therefore, I did 80 x 250m at 1:37, 40 x 500m at 1:39, and 20 x 1K at 1:43, in Zatopek format.<br /><br />As I mentioned, too, I emphatically did _not_ do the recovery rowing at 2:00 pace, though. I did it quite a bit slower (2:30 or so). If you work this out, this means that the overall marathon row turned out to be just around 3 hours (2:55 or so, 2:05 pace), not at all a fast marathon (I had rowed 2:40/1:54 pace for the marathon at the time). <br /><br />As I remember, I took a couple of short breaks when I did the Zatopek 250s. That is, I "batched" the intervals in the workout (as I remember, into sets of 20). I did the Zatopek 500s and 1Ks, however, without batching. No, I didn't follow a strict regimen of recovery time, though. <br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe in volume Ranger, but I assume you are not implying pace or style. Lydiard was not a big believer in doing AT until maybe 8 - 10 weeks before racing and to quote an article I have (which I have no reason to doubt and can supply anyone intersted):<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George--<br /><br />Zatopeks are in no way AT work. The point is exactly that your heart rate is _way_ below AT for most of the three hours and _never_ above AT. According to the C2 manual, AT rowing for me (Level 2 rowing) should be done at 1:41 pace (e.g., 4 x 2K at 1:41). Such work has no resemblance whatsoever to a Zatopek. Try the two workouts and you will see. The Zatopek workout is a foundational workout done to great length with a relatively low heart rate that works on muscular conditioning, technique, mental discipline, and habituation. AT rowing is sharpening, or something very close to it, final race preparation.<br /><br />I reiterate. No need to for talk here. Just do the workouts and all of this talk is needless. The differences you are contemplating in the abstract are clear as a bell in practice.<br /><br />BTW, I think that Zatopeks would be great foundational workouts for big heavyweights such as you. One of the great difficulties for a big heavyweight is getting all of that muscle in shape, getting the full benefit of all of that potential power. Zatopeks might be a nice solution. They are exercises in muscular conditioning.<br /><br />Another solution would be marathon rowing or extended biking. Mark Heller, a 50s heavyweight who won a medal at the CRASH-Bs a few years ago, liked to do both, even though he was almost 250 lbs. In addition to a regular regimen of distance running, he took regular 50 mile bike rides in the evenings. He ran/raced marathons to measure his progress with this foundational work on muscular conditioning and endurance.<br /><br />Alan Paige, the great defensive lineman for the Minnesota Vikings a few decades back (and now a Minnesota Supreme Court justice!) took up marathon running in the off-season late in his career, even though he was heavier than 275 pounds. As I remember, the running slimmed him down to 230 lbs. or so and people said that this was too light to play in the defensive line in the NFL. It wasn't. The running did nothing to his strength. It just made him _very_ fast and tough. Result: NFL Hall of Fame.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another solution would be marathon rowing or extended biking. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry. This should read _marathon running_, not _marathon rowing_. Zatopeks are just that, _marathon rowing_.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

All of this chatter about Zatopeks is pretty humorous. All I hear, really, is a lot fear--fear of working hard, fear of testiing your limits, fear of facing your limitations, fear of facing reality!<br /><br />If this is your attitude, then good luck with rowing, especially erging.<br /><br />As Paul Hendershott likes to say, the erg is a truth machine.<br /><br />It might be time to assess who is lying to whom. IMHO, you folks are lying to yourselves!<br /><br />Yikes, just do the forking workout! It doesn't do you any good to keep telling me that I can't, didn't, shouldn't, etc. Find out for yourselves where you are in your foundational rowing. My guess is that it might not be too pretty to behold.<br /><br />I expect self-delusion from an 18-year-old, so this note is not really addressed to the loudest voice on this thread. 18-year-olds all lie to themselves; they are the unparalleled masters of self-delusion. I should know. I have three children, all of them in and around 18 years old!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

As I understand, Zatopek did his 400s around 70 seconds or so. Given that he ran in Army boots through the woods, I suspect the work done was equivalent to about 65 second quarters run in spikes on the track. 65 seconds is just about 10K pace (or a little under) for him, no?<br /><br />Because rowing (and things like swimming) are not percussive, interval workouts can be done somewhat more quickly than running intervals. My 1:39s for 40 x 500m are not _totally_ out of line, then, especially given my potential. When my technique is entirely fixed and I am more seasoned with it, I think I might get a 5K done some day at 1:39. <br /><br />I do 8 x 500m at 2K - 4 (about 1:33). So these Zatopek 500s that I do are six seconds slower per 500m than 500s in an anaerobic sharpening workout. Six seconds per 500m is a lot. For instance, this is generally the difference between a 2K pace and a 5K pace. <br /><br />ranger