New to erg, what is your average/peak force?

[max_ratcliffe]

I personally find SPI to be a useful index, but it depends on what one is trying to do. For strength training, maximizing SPI is a good goal. That usually involves low SPM and low pace. But if one is trying establish best times, maximizing SPI won't work. Generally SPM will go up and SPI will go down. Of course all of this is age and fitness dependent. Talking SPI for a 30 yr old is vastly different than for a 60 yr old. Let's say one does 15K in one hr. That is 2:00 pace, 202 Watts. At 28 SPM, that is SPI of 7.2. 15K is the 90 percentile mark for >= 60.

I find it odd since if the basic calculation of power output already involves stroke rate (and applied force), so I'm not sure of the sense of using it again by dividing the power by it as you've then used it twice.

Power is power and surely it's on that basis we should be discussing comparisons. Just as an aside, I don't row as often as many of you but I find it curious that it seems that people are still prioritizing other metrics such as heart rate or stroke rate over power output in this day and age.

Surely there is a world of difference in training effect between a 202W row at rate 16 vs rate 28? SPI is just a metric. Ultimately, it doesn't mean that much, any more than stride length does in a running event. If you're stroking very quickly but not producing much power, perhaps strengthening your stroke is the way forwards (or backwards, given that we're rowing).

[uk gearmuncher]

1) Surely there is a world of difference in training effect between a 202W row at rate 16 vs rate 28?
2) SPI is just a metric. Ultimately, it doesn't mean that much, any more than stride length does in a running event.
3) If you're stroking very quickly but not producing much power, perhaps strengthening your stroke is the way forwards (or backwards, given that we're rowing).

1) Only in how the power is produced but if two rowers are putting out 200w, that value is objective and directly comparable (even if one is applying more force or the other producing a higher stroke rate to get it). In terms of training effect - possibly - but I'd argue it would make more sense to look at force produced and stroke rate independently and not by summating these by using an index. It is also very hard to decouple and isolate force from rate when training anyway. By the way, the published research in several paddle-based sports suggests that the key performance indicator to differentiate performance at the sharp end is primarily stroke rate (but that assumes everyone's efficiency is good - which for amateurs it may not be).

2) Agreed.... but I'd argue using the same metric twice isn't terribly good practise. Going off on a tangent, in running, stride length isn't a very helpful metric as its a bi-product of what is important (for sprinting) which is the ground reaction force. It's crucial to focus on the right metric and not be governed by the wrong one.

3) I'd agree completely with you. Because I'm used to 12 hours cycling a week, erg'ing at the moment isn't taxing me aerobically at all in comparison to my muscular functionality which needs to adapt to keep up (if it were a training priority). I did a 500m TT recently out of curiosity and to be honest, I had to lower the damper to a level most of you wouldn't remotely consider as I needed to shunt the emphasis onto my cardiovascular system as my back and arms just weren't conditioned for the force I wanted to produce.

[ampire]

I've bought a concept2 and I'm doing 2k's. I'm noticing I don't have much power out of the drive, and my force curve is quite flat and long, and I'm pretty sure my Average Force is low. Here is my numbers from the latest 2k:

Stroke Count: 253
Drive Length: 1.27m
Average Force: 44lbs
Drag Force: 110
Drive Speed: 1.41ms
Peak Force: 62lbs

10:46.4
2:41.6 ave/500m

Any suggestions and how to get more power out? Or am I simply just not strong enough yet. Been rowing for only 2 weeks. Totally new to this.

Quick tangent question: How do I protect my back while doing this exercise?

I think its a form issue because your average force is quite low and your drive length is low relative to your height. I think you aren't connecting power hard and fast enough to grab the clutch on the flywheel so a portion of the drive is wasted. If you have a very weak catch, the flywheel will spin without fully engaging the clutch and the chain can come out of the machine but not record the entire drive.

The one foot in one foot out drill will help. Also set your drag factor even lower, try 100. As your form improves, you will get dramatically faster.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLyOyWls9_Y it shows the one foot in one foot out drill. (@ 14Mins) Its a really good video so I'd watch the whole thing.

To protect your back, don't lean excessively into the catch, don't handle too high at the finish (this causes backward lean). To protect your back, train your core, planks possibly.

Post a video of yourself rowing so we can examine the form.

[jackarabit]

Highly likely. There is a certain amount of learning how and when to do even something as deceptively simple as pulling a chain. We are measuring power produced and work accomplished by a novice. Novices come in both inept and prodigious flavors and everything between? Don’t assume you have even modest aptitude for a task you took up two weeks ago. Assume that you don’t. At this stage, you should be sharpening tools. Employing them to optimum effect will come.

[jamesg]

Any suggestions and how to get more power out? Or am I simply just not strong enough yet. Been rowing for only 2 weeks. Totally new to this.

At the moment your data says you are going backwards and forwards on the erg, slowly (1.4 m/s) and with low force (20 kg).

A useful exercise is to let the flywheel stop, then come forward to half slide, and pull just one stroke hard. Make sure your posture lets you do this from a strong position to protect your back, as if lifting a weight. Then give yourself time to recover (3-4 seconds), and repeat, making sure you come forward slowly to the same catch position.

If you can climb stairs, you are more than strong enough.

[jamesg]

SPI is just a metric. Ultimately, it doesn't mean that much

"SPI" is the work in the stroke, where Work = Length x Force. To train it's best kept high, and the C2 erg lets us keep this under control.

That way we only need to adjust rating to switch training bands, without bothering with HR or anything else: 18-23 is UT2 and 1, 28 is AT, race at 32-35.

[mitchel674]

OP, is there some reason you never responded to your previous thread?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=188093

The answers are there. You have a slow, weak stroke. You showed us this when you posted the photo of your force curve. Suggestions were made for you if you have an interest in how to improve your stroke. No need to ask the same question a different way.

[nick rockliff]

An easy way to check your stroke quality is the SPI (stroke power index), which is watts / SPM (strokes per minute). For example, if you row with 100W at 20 SPM your SPI is 5 (low). Male HWT rower are normally a good bit higher (around 8-12 depending on fitness and strength), and elite rower can do SPIs >17 for 30min.

Any anecdotes on what SPI would be considered 'good' for an hour's steady state work ?

I've trained on the C2 since 2002/2003 and can say I've never even looked to see what the SPI has been for any session (about 60 million metres worth). To me it's meaningless.

For the majority my training I've used pace, rate and HR, I wouldn't have a clue what pace relates to Watts and couldn't be bothered to work it out.

[Allan Olesen]

I find it odd since if the basic calculation of power output already involves stroke rate (and applied force), so I'm not sure of the sense of using it again by dividing the power by it as you've then used it twice.

SPI is energy per stroke. The unit is wattminutes per stroke. If you consider wattminutes an odd energy unit, multiply it by 60, and you get joule.

So SPI * 60 = Joule per stroke.

It is a fully valid calculation. (Speaking as an engineer who does energy and power calculations as my dayjob.)

[ampire]

An easy way to check your stroke quality is the SPI (stroke power index), which is watts / SPM (strokes per minute). For example, if you row with 100W at 20 SPM your SPI is 5 (low). Male HWT rower are normally a good bit higher (around 8-12 depending on fitness and strength), and elite rower can do SPIs >17 for 30min.

Any anecdotes on what SPI would be considered 'good' for an hour's steady state work ?

I've trained on the C2 since 2002/2003 and can say I've never even looked to see what the SPI has been for any session (about 60 million metres worth). To me it's meaningless.

For the majority my training I've used pace, rate and HR, I wouldn't have a clue what pace relates to Watts and couldn't be bothered to work it out.

Watts gives a bit more granularity than pace. Observing on a monthly basis an average of UT training's watts to heart rate ratio might be a way of measuring subtle improvement in UT aerobic capacity.

[mitchel674]

Nice discussion about SPI, but the OP has more issues than the esoterics being debated. Take a look at his force curve from the other thread.

Probably pretty poor technique and likely shooting the slide.

[lancecampeau]

Most here know that I'm a big fan of the SPI metric and have posted about it several times... here is a repost from Jan 24th

I regularly use this basic calculation to get a somewhat general sense of my rowing efficiency from workout to workout...

average watts / average stroke rate = SPI

I'll use tonight's session for an example... 5000m / 19:18.3 / 1:55.8 / DF 130 / SR 22 / SPI 10.22 / 225w

225w / 22 stroke per minute = Stroke Power Index of 10.22

This calculation is only valid if you maintain a consistent stroke rate from beginning to end.
Sprinting at the end will significantly skew the result!!!.

Anything over 10.0 is a good target. Elite rowers can regularly push the SPI over 15.0 (which is hard to do!)

Conservatively, I would expect a beginner rower to be pulling SPI 4.0 to 6.0 during that first month and to be hitting SPI 8.0+ with relative ease by the 3rd month.

[Cyclingman1]

I don't think that there is anything particularly meritorious about rowing at 20-22 SPM. Large, bulky guys are comfortable with low SPM and because there is a great deal of recovery time are able to put more energy into each pull and as a consequence are bound to have higher SPI's.

One of the ideas of high SPI at low SPM is that such a rower will have developed the strength to keep the same SPI at a much higher SPM. The fact of the matter is that is seldom true. For example, when I see that a season best time is done at say 10 SPI and 20 SPM [200W] that pretty much confirms my point. Why isn't a season best being posted at say 30 SPM and 10 SPI [300W] ?

I use pace, SPM, and SPI when looking at my rowing. But I keep them in context. The only one that actually matters is avg pace. I've never seen a gold medal given to someone because their leg turnover was slow or fast or on stride length. OTOH, gold medals are always given to those with the lowest avg pace.

[lancecampeau]

I don't think that there is anything particularly meritorious about rowing at 20-22 SPM. Large, bulky guys are comfortable with low SPM and because there is a great deal of recovery time are able to put more energy into each pull and as a consequence are bound to have higher SPI's.

One of the ideas of high SPI at low SPM is that such a rower will have developed the strength to keep the same SPI at a much higher SPM. The fact of the matter is that is seldom true. For example, when I see that a season best time is done at say 10 SPI and 20 SPM [200W] that pretty much confirms my point. Why isn't a season best being posted at say 30 SPM and 10 SPI [300W] ?

I use pace, SPM, and SPI when looking at my rowing. But I keep them in context. The only one that actually matters is avg pace. I've never seen a gold medal given to someone because their leg turnover was slow or fast or on stride length. OTOH, gold medals are always given to those with the lowest avg pace.

You make a valid point... SPI values tailored to match a particular athlete's ability sounds a lot more useful. A 12 year old rower who weights 100 lbs is not likely to hit SPI 10.0... but an SPI level of 2 or 3 is more reasonable.

So it begs the question... Has anyone formulated a bracketing system for the SPI rating?

A calculation that gets granular by using quantified data points that go beyond just watts & stroke rate.

Variables like...

• age, sex, weight, height, wingspan, BMI, etc...

• personal performance metrics (I.E. low pull/peak power ability, time trials, VO2 Max, endurance, etc...) ,

A wider range of ideal SPI values could be tabulated like this... One could create a table of SPI values for specific training goals or to maximizing stoke efficiency, etc...

Yeah, I like numbers...

[jamesg]

I don't think that there is anything particularly meritorious about rowing at 20-22 SPM

It's useful for beginners, since it gives them time to square the blades, put them into the water, pull through, take them out again, feather, come forward and start all over again. It's not too difficult with just one blade a head, but seeing a novice crew you wouldn't believe it. The merit if any is the coaches, who's taught them to row with a good stroke at a rating that can let them pull 10-15 km and start to get fit. Olympic sculling in a quad, at up to 48 with an effective stroke, comes a little later.