Intervals: 8x500 V. 16x250

[[old] Alan Maddocks]

If as a species (we humans) only did the <b>standard, tried and tested </b>things we would still be sitting around the camp fire, outside our caves, wearing just bear-skins.<br /><br />Let's celebrate innovation & creativity<br /><br />Whatever one thinks about Ranger's training methods and practices (some possibly dubious but many inspired (& inspiring)), let's not criticise him for being prepared to think outside the box.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It seems that sr1s' position (unless I have misunderstood) is that he doesn't believe you have actually achieved anything significantly more 'creative and productive' than the myriad international rowers who train according to the 'qualified, constrained, unimaginative, standardized' advice that you deride.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And what is the basis for sr1s position? Apparently, he hasn't done the Zatopek workouts, nor (I suspect) have the international rowers that he refers to. So how does he know what the Zatopek workouts can do for you (or not)? I don't understand.<br /><br />40 x 500m at 1:39 for a rower in a division which was won at WIRC at 1:45 pace is a _very_ nice workout, I think. In particular, as intervals pass by, I get more and more _habituated_ to 1:39 pace, until I can do it almost effortlessly (e.g., so that I can do it pretty easiliy for 2K!). <br /><br />Much of rowing, one of the most repetitive sports imaginable, I think, depends on such habituation, what you can do almost effortlessly. So I find Zatopeks _very_ useful.<br /><br />As I understand these matters, habituation is the basis of things like UT2 and UT1 rowing. Zatopek's discovery, I think, is that you can extend this sort of focus on habituation to faster paces by doing long fartleks---_very_ long. <br /><br />I do UT1 rowing now at about 1:47 pace, and eventually, I think, I will be able to do 1:47 for 20K or so as a standard UT1 row. Trouble is, I can't do a 20K UT1 row at 1:39. But 40 x 500m gives me something comparable, at least in quantity and focus on habituation: 20K of rowing at 1:39.<br /><br />Zatopek 250s give me 20K of rowing at 1:37, my 2K pace. 4 x 1K gives me 4K of rowing at my 2K pace, 1/5 as much.<br /><br />BTW, I do most of the things that the international rowers do, too. So the Zatopeks that I do occasionally are just an _addition_ to my rotation of workouts, not an exclusive focus of concern.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->some possibly dubious </td></tr></table><br /><br />So what do you think is "dubious," Alan?<br /><br />Just curious.<br /><br />Long warm ups (1-2 hours) before hard training and racing? 1000 sit ups a day? Jumping rope for an hour a day? Two hours a day on a stepper at 280 watts? Marathon length fartlek/Zatopek workouts? Rowing strapless at low rates (16-20 spm) and 13-15 SPI day after day for months and months to increase stroking power? <br /><br />ranger

[[old] Alan Maddocks]

Ranger,<br /><br />I knew you would pick up on that in what was a complimentary posting <br /><br />Yes, I'm referring to the length of the warm-ups, I suppose.<br /><br />Remember, I did say <b>possibly</b> dubious<br /><br />Alan.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, I'm referring to the length of the warm-ups, I suppose.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Perhaps. <br /><br />Some of my attraction to long warm ups for rowing might just be a function of my age (54) and peculiar circumstances (i.e., to this time, poor technique). It seem to be established that older athletes benefit more from long warm ups, especially before very demanding physical performance, such as hard rowing.<br /><br />I am also discovering that using better technique is now making rowing, by itself, a fuller and more balanced activity for me, one that might not need as much cross-training as I have done in the past. With my old stroke, in my day to day rowing at longer distances and slower paces, I neglected my arms and legs and rowed primarily with my back. The cross-training, I think, kept the rest of my body in shape and prepared me for a fuller use of my arms and legs when I needed to do faster rowing. If you do proper UT2 and UT1 rowing, though, the exercise is mild CV work but _very_ good and balanced muscular training. This makes a lot of cross-training more dispensable.<br /><br />Unfortunately, it seems that almost no one in and around this forum does standard UT2 and UT1 training. Most avoid exactly what rowing demands (and cross-training can provide): superior muscular strength and endurance. Until just recently, I _never_ used to row long distances (e.g., 20-30K) at 1:52 and 22 spm (or 1:47 and 24 spm). Like most, to save effort, I just lightened up my stroke, traded rate for pace, and let the stroke rate float to a muscularly comfortable level (28-30 spm?) when I rowed at these paces and distances. <br /><br />Not good. <br /><br />ranger

[[old] nkoffler]

Rich-<br /><br />I'm glad you chimmed in on this issue. Most of us know this ground has been well trod before.<br /><br />Your reference to you old stroke brought up a question. I know you used to row with a great deal of back action (poor term, I know). I also know that you are naturally right on the LW cusp due to your lean body mass. Your new stroke is more balanced (I assume in many ways including the demands on your muscle system). As such, has your habituation to your new stroke changed the distribution of your muscle mass and resulted in any differences with regards to weight/lean muscle mass?<br /><br />Finally, I didn't notice any racing results this season. Did I miss them or did other demands on your time keep you away? If so, I'm looking forward to following your exploits next season.<br /><br />Neil

[[old] Alan Maddocks]

Ranger,<br /><br />I have no qualms whatsover with the rowing training you are employing. As you say, most people on this forum ignore the foundational / conditioning quality of lower spm work. <br /><br />As not doubt you are aware, Arthur Lydiard transformed middle / long distance running in the 1960s with his emphasis on 'marathon conditioning'. <br /><br />His principles are still followed by the most successful runners. The less successful runners usually try to short-cut the process by doing more so called 'quality' training at the expense of the training that builds the base. <br /><br />In rowing, the most successful rowers (@ international standard) row up to 200,000 metres per week, the vast majority of which for most of the year is at low spm. building up technique & power. Exactly what you have been doing!<br /><br />Alan.

[[old] starboardrigged1seat]

My problem isn't with what training Ranger is doing or says he's been doing. Quite frankly I don't care if he's lying or not. I do have a problem with the complete lack of knowledge that most people on this board seem to have about rowing physiology. I'll let Ranger's assertions of having completed workouts that every DI college heavyweight I've spoken to said are physically impossible (with times in the low 6 minutes) slide, and ask this question -- what is the point? People have acheived far greater results using more traditional methods -- so why all the pomp and noise about these types of training methods?<br />Alright -- we all know a good rowing stroke is a prequisite to rowing well. However, the physiology that goes along with training is far more important than "habituation". Secondly. The national team has the time, the recovery ability, and the resources to row 20k a week. (That's actually a relatively light week, by some standards). For an average person, there is never any need to row more than 80 minutes in one sitting in training for the 2k race. You can get optimal physiological adaptations between 30 and 60 minutes of "hard steady state". Thirdly -- rowing strapless will result for the vast majority of people, in a very slight, if at all increase in ultimate 2k erg score.

[[old] Dickie]

<!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 15 2005, 04:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 15 2005, 04:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Dickie+Feb 15 2005, 01:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Feb 15 2005, 01:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 15 2005, 01:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 15 2005, 01:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No.  I refuse to believe that.  Especially for someone with a 6:28 -- it just isn't physically possible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And of course. at the ripe old age of 18, you are an expert at such things. That kind of statement only shows your immaturity. That 6:28 was the world record. I believe that there are others on this forum who could at least approach an 80 by 250 at 2k pace. Indeed anyone with a fast marathon time could probably approach it.<br /><br />I for one believe that he can do it, I am no marathoner, in fact by endurance is quite lousy and i can manage 20 by 250 at 2k pace.<br /><br />Fred dickie <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Alright. I have no idea who you are. You have no idea who I am either. You don't know me, you don't know my training background, you do not know who I have been coached by, you don't know my erg scores. And from my experience, 80 x 250 at 2k pace is a retarded workout. There is never any need to do that -- I don't care what you're training for. Marathon, hour of power, 2k personal best attempt, 6k test for national team selection, worlds. There is no reason. I have not heard of a single reputable rowing coach ever making somebody do something like that. So Fred, thank you for getting involved, it did a whole lot of nothing. If you can show me a well-known coach or rower producing elite level results who have used that workout with success, I will change my mind. Until then, it goes against everything that I know about exercise physiology and common sense. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You're right, I don't know who you are. I was replying with what I did know<br /><br />1. You are 18<br />2. Your implied by your statement that Ranger was a Liar<br /><br />Your reply back to me only reinforces my first impression, you are immature.<br /><br />As for me, I first rowed when I was 18, 31 years ago, thus I have more experience in rowing than you have been alive. I too have seen a lot of coaches and none of them ever recommended Rangers regimen. That doesn't make it wrong, useless or impossible, just different. Rangers Zatopek routine is nothing more than a long interval session. If you have never heard of Interval training, then you need new coaches.<br /><br />Fred Dickie

[[old] starboardrigged1seat]

I have heard of interval training. And the idea of doing 40 intervals at race pace, with equal recovery time, is quite frankly idiotic in our sport. Just because you're old, Fred, doesn't mean you know more than me.<br />And for the record, I have never outright called Ranger a liar. I think I have implied that he just might not have a clear idea of what he's talking about.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

My impression is that Zatopek and his handlers cultivated the impression that he was training at race pace, but that he actually ran lots and lots and lots of short intervals at considerably slower speeds.<br /><br />To be sure, casual browsing of web sources produces dozens of sites claiming that Zatopek did this, or that, or some other thing. Many of these assertions are mutually contradictory....<br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] rowing86]

alright starboard, this isnt the rowersworld forum. you and your moderator pals aren't going to just delete whatever you don't like. and for the record, coming on and accusing an accomplished rower of lying about workouts is not a good thing to do. so either shut up and stop being such a whiny bitch or go back to rowersworld where you post more than everyone else in the entire forum combined. <br /><br />a dc rowing fan

[[old] Dickie]

<!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 16 2005, 03:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 16 2005, 03:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have heard of interval training.  And the idea of doing 40 intervals at race pace, with equal recovery time, is quite frankly idiotic in our sport.  Just because you're old, Fred, doesn't mean you know more than me.<br />And for the record, I have never outright called Ranger a liar.  I think I have implied that he just might not have a clear idea of what he's talking about. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You ought to quit while you're behind. What special knowledge do you possess that you can state with certainty that Long Intervals are 'idiotic'. I don't claim to know more because I am old, I don't even claim to know more, period. What I do claim is a History with rowing longer than your life, does it mean I know more, No, what it does mean is that I have more experience, and this is where the maturity part comes in, I have the experience to refrain from such statements as you have made because my experience tells me that I don't know everything and you don't have the experience to tell you that.<br /><br />When I was younger I was much more into weightlifting than rowing, I lifted 3 hours plus every day using split routines and the latest knowledge. I gave it up 7 years ago due to tendon problems. There are many threads here on lifting to improve rowing, but things in the lifting world have changed so much in the last seven years that I leave it to people that are more up to date on the subject. I don't try to pound home the old ideas, instead I learn from them. This zatopek routine is used by a world record holder. maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, it does not deserve to be dismissed in such a cavilier fashion. Who knows, in 20 years you may be a coach telling your crew that Zatopek routines have trained world athletes and you learned of them on this forum, or they may dissapear along with so many other training plans that have been tried through the ages.<br /><br />Fred Dickie

[[old] starboardrigged1seat]

Fred, until somebody can defend this workout with more than heresay and second hand stories, I reserve the right to doubt it's effectiveness. And rowing86? Do I know you? Because you certainly assume to know me. Stop calling me a whiny bitch, and go somewhere else. Where people care what you think.

[[old] starboardrigged1seat]

Alright. Please read.<br /><a href='http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0600.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0600.htm</a><br />note: "Zatopek's amazing 100 x 400m reps<br />In spite of the great success of Kolehmainen, Nurmi, and Hagg, interval training didn't really take off until after World War II, and it was not a Finn but a notable Czechoslovakian athlete, Emil Zatopek, who perhaps did the best job of convincing the athletic world at large that intervals represented an unparalleled training technique. Zatopek used a somewhat unusual interval combination: he ran relatively short repeats, often no more than 400m in length, but instead of blazing through these relatively short interval distances at high speeds, he ran them at close to his lactate-threshold velocity, ie well below both 10k and 5k race speeds (3)."<br />