Intervals: 8x500 V. 16x250

[old] nkoffler · Post by **[old] nkoffler** » February 15th, 2005, 7:22 pm

Yes, you are right that that would be heroic. Ranger did not write that he actually does the easy rowing at 2:00/pace. He said he usually rests at a slower pace. I'm amazed that he can do the workout at all but I still believe it. Neil

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » February 15th, 2005, 7:47 pm

Indeed. Something on the order of 80 x 250 at (say) 7min/2k pace plus 80 x 250 at 2:30/500m paddle would mean 40k in 2:50:00, and imply a marathon in 2:59.19.8. I suspect that's entirely within the range of the possible for quite a few on this Forum, not least of whom Ranger.

[old] Almostflipped · Post by **[old] Almostflipped** » February 15th, 2005, 7:51 pm

What exactly is the purpose of such a workout? Is it meant to be a high intensity SS? Or more of an extended AT piece? My spin on this whole question is, why would you do this and what benefit does it provide? IMHO, it seems like more could be accomplished through other shorter workouts.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » February 15th, 2005, 8:11 pm

Based on the PATT tables, the hwt 2k WR of 5:37.0 / .904 is the equivalent of a 2:21:04.9 for the marathon.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » February 15th, 2005, 8:24 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What exactly is the purpose of such a workout? </td></tr></table> Got me, I didn't start the thread and I don't do such things. But a Stalin might answer something like После чистки, ничего страшно/Posle chistki, nichego strashno, meaning (roughly) that if you've come through a purge alive, you've little else to fear. If you can do 80 x 250 as a workout, nothing much after that is going to daunt you on an erg....

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » February 15th, 2005, 8:26 pm

Alright, as Navigation pointed out and proved, and I blindly asserted -- completion of the workout at those splits that Ranger said seem improbable for the top athletes in the world, let alone a lightweight with a 6:28.

[old] tow rope · Post by **[old] tow rope** » February 15th, 2005, 10:00 pm

Zatopek’s training workouts are of running lore. I read once that he did 60 X 440 yard workouts @ 04:00/mile pace; thats 15 4 min miles!! And for those that would argue with his method; I believe he is the only man to with the gold in the 5K, 10K and Marathon (all in 1952!!!). So who are you going to believe; Michael Jackson, Jose Conseco, or Ranger?? It's an IQ test. Bert

[old] starboardrigged1seat · Post by **[old] starboardrigged1seat** » February 15th, 2005, 10:17 pm

Yes, Zapotek. Who was obviously the best athlete in the world for those given distances at that Olympiad.

[old] Almostflipped · Post by **[old] Almostflipped** » February 15th, 2005, 10:34 pm

I keep hearing that Zatopek did these workouts and did well. Thats great, but why? Mimicking someone else's workouts does no good unless you understand how they fit into the greater scheme of a training schedule and why they were chosen. What works for some does not work for all. Ex: The US Mens 8 is known to have spent a significant amount of time simply paddling in training. Now, I could look at this and say "The key to winning is paddling" and go paddle up and down the river. This however would not work for me as I am not doing the volume of other hard work that they were....but it did work for them. So again, it's great that it worked for someone else; but why? Another example, take a look at some of the great scullers in the world (for those who have seen elite sculling). You will see some forms of technique that no coach on earth would tell a rower to do. But it works for them. What's important again, isn't what they are doing; it's why they are doing it. Tow Rope: Easily Conseco. Nothing against Ranger, but we have already seen that the MLB is the single greatest safe haven for junkies outside of US Track and Field.

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » February 16th, 2005, 1:50 am

When I scull I end up doing around 20-30 250-300m pieces with a minute or so forced stop in between, because my boat is rigged somewhat too hard (I'm going to change it). I've found this type of work is very effective in letting me go a bit faster in a 2k on the erg. However the effect only lasts a month. Also this type of work I find too tiring to do just before a race. So for me at least it's not a useful workout, as it doesn't make me any fitter long term, and it's too tiring to use in a taper before a race. It is fun though, it's always nice to pull really hard and hear the boat sing when there's no one else around on the lake at 7 am. I'll remember that whan I've long forgotten all the 10k UT2 pieces on the erg; but these are what made it possible.

[old] R S T · Post by **[old] R S T** » February 16th, 2005, 3:38 am

Folks Thanks for all the responses. I get the impression that there are not *too* many people who actually do the 16X250 m sessions. I think I will stick to the 8X500m for the timebeing....UNLESS someone can tell me what benefit they have over 8X500. Cheers RichardT

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » February 16th, 2005, 6:53 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 14 2005, 05:44 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger, 80 x 250 at 2k? This sounds like another fable. </td></tr></table> Not at all a fable. I have also done Zatopek 500s (40 x 500m @ 2K + 2, 500m paddle inbetween) and 1Ks (20 x 1K at 5K, 1K paddle inbetween). For me, this means the 250s at 1:37, the 500s at 1:39, and the 1Ks at 1:43. Yes, including the paddles between the intervals, a full Zatopek is a marathon of rowing. These workouts are great and serve all sorts of good purposes, as Zatopek demonstrated in his running. Training like this, Zatopek won the 5K, 10K, and the marathon (three golds) in the same Olympic Games. In fact, he was in such good shape, after winning the 5K and 10K, he just entered the marathon on a lark; he had never run the distance before. He just ran with the leaders for 15 miles or so, then wondered why everyone was running so slow, and ran off and left the pack behind. BTW, Zatopek ran these long interval workouts through the woods in his army boots! Tough character. As I like to say: he was the nuttiest of them all. Do these workouts get you in shape, relative to the competition. Well, if I did the Zatopek 500s right now at 1:39, which I certainly could, I think, I would be rowing the 40 intervals at gold standard - 6 in my WIRC division for next year. The 55-59 lwts this year was won at around 1:45 pace. Nice workout! ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » February 16th, 2005, 6:59 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 15 2005, 07:26 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Alright, as Navigation pointed out and proved, and I blindly asserted -- completion of the workout at those splits that Ranger said seem improbable for the top athletes in the world, let alone a lightweight with a 6:28. </td></tr></table> Yes, I can only row 6:28. Then again I am 54 years old. And you are, what, 18? Hmm. Yes, I am slow, but with the years comes a little toughness. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » February 16th, 2005, 7:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Alright. I have no idea who you are. You have no idea who I am either. You don't know me, you don't know my training background, you do not know who I have been coached by, you don't know my erg scores. And from my experience, 80 x 250 at 2k pace is a retarded workout. There is never any need to do that -- I don't care what you're training for. Marathon, hour of power, 2k personal best attempt, 6k test for national team selection, worlds. There is no reason. I have not heard of a single reputable rowing coach ever making somebody do something like that. So Fred, thank you for getting involved, it did a whole lot of nothing. If you can show me a well-known coach or rower producing elite level results who have used that workout with success, I will change my mind. Until then, it goes against everything that I know about exercise physiology and common sense. </td></tr></table> Fine. Then don't do it. Follow your coach's advice. No one is demanding that you do Zatopeks. But you might consider this: If you want to do unusual things in life, you have to prepare in unusual ways. Yes, Zatopeks take unusual endurance. Therefore, they are not at all for everyone. This doesn't say anything about their (unusual!) usefulness, though. It just says something about the level of patience, motivation, dedication, and ambition of "most people." I suppose it is just a personal preference, but in a good bit of what I do, I don't find it very useful to do what "most people" do. Contrary to your litany of "well-known" thises and "reputable" thats, I find standard advice on these matters much too qualified, constrained, unimaginative, standardized, etc. Much more creative and productive things are possible, I think. But, yes, you are right, these more creative and productive things, it seems, are not for everyone. Such as you? ranger

[old] Physicist · Post by **[old] Physicist** » February 16th, 2005, 7:47 am

It seems that sr1s' position (unless I have misunderstood) is that he doesn't believe you have actually achieved anything significantly more 'creative and productive' than the myriad international rowers who train according to the 'qualified, constrained, unimaginative, standardized' advice that you deride. Me, I'm not going to venture an opinion either way