Pb Failures ...

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 23rd, 2005, 7:31 pm

Given that some of life's most valuable lessons are learned the hard way, perhaps a thread dedicated to the discussion of failed PB attempts might serve some purpose as we all (newbies to never-weres and everyone in between) try to reach our goals.

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 23rd, 2005, 7:48 pm

For example, six days ago I set out to improve on my 2K PB. This was my third 2K test in C2's Interactive Programme. The previous four or five weeks had been relatively interruption-free training, and I felt that I had made some good gains in that time - I was using lower stroke rates and maintaining a higher pace for each of the training bands. My previous PB was 7:30.2 (1:52.5/500), and I planned on getting to 7:20 rather easily, maybe even going down to 7:15 or better. My AN work a week earlier seemed to indicate that I was not being unrealistic. So after warmup, I strapped in with the goal of doing 1:50 for the first 1000, then 1:48 for the next 500, then either maintaining 1:48 or possibly dropping to 1:46. I am not sure what happened, and that is the reason for this post, but it was a real struggle from the start. I did maintain 1:50 for the first 1K, but it was a real struggle and I ended up bailing out after about 1400m, feeling very tired (and rather pissed off). Not sure what questions to ask, but would like to hear from those who may have experienced something similar in their training. I took a couple of days off, then "re-erged" my last two workouts. I plan on doing the same test tomorrow (Monday). Thanks, Mark

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 23rd, 2005, 9:43 pm

I read recently and agree a comment about training sessions and it could also apply to PB attempts .... "there are two types of training sessions, good ones and ones you learn from" and I think this applies to PB attempts as well, especially the longer you have been training. In the early days half your PB's come in training, later on you actually have to plan them, and I dont know about anyone else but for me I am at the stage where a PB attempt is a bit scary because I hate failing so it I am going to have a go it is not enough to 'just have a go', conversly the satisfaction of achievement is greater tho short lived as each one is just a step to the next So after that ramble I will get to your situation Mark. Not sure where you came up with your strategy but i think it is all wrong and here is how I would pace it if I was you. 7 - 9 good hard strokes and average down to 1:45- 1:46 or lower - then settle down to a predetermined stroke rate and back off the pace and sit on 1:50 and look to hold this thru to the 1000 (note this is not your average that is sliding but your actual - your average will drift up), ....thru the 3rd 500 in the pain and misery work on keeping your stroke long and relaxed and at your predetermined rate (you will see some 1:51 / 1:52's unless your cruising but dont worry), keep breathing deep ... .... once you hit 500 to go you are thinking about the finish and looking inside to see what is left in the tank - dont go to a sprint if at all to soon - with 200 to go you have got about 20 strokes left and now is the time to see what your training has achieved the rest was drudgery , start to pick it up with your legs not just your arms, try and pick up your rate by a couple but dont sacrifice your drive and stroke - sit tall, use your legs, get your back into it and finish with the hands (if you screw up your technique to pick up the rate you will waste the effort) - get down to the last 100 and think about nothing else but putting every bit you have into the handle. You WILL be under 1:50 for the last 200 and maybe that will get you your PB and maybe it wont but dont worry it is where your at. maybe you will get there and you have PB'd and think you could have gone quicker - either way dont plan another attempt the day after - take what you get and learn and use it in 4 weeks time when you try it again Hope this is of some use regds George

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 23rd, 2005, 10:03 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(GeorgeD @ Jan 24 2005, 01:43 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So after that ramble I will get to your situation Mark. Not sure where you came up with your strategy but i think it is all wrong and here is how I would pace it if I was you. regds George </td></tr></table> thanks for the input George. As I have discovered, and you have mentioned, there is more to PB'ing than just training - race strategy and mental preparedness are very important as well. I feel that I am starting to understand what "proper training" should feel like, the topics of race strategy and mental training are things that I will have to pay more attention to as I progress. What really bothered me about the attempt was that I had done 10x1' AN intervals about ten days earlier, averaging 1:46 30 SPM for the first nine intervals, then 1:42 32 SPM for the last interval. I felt very strong during this session and thought that a relatively "easy" 7:20 would be mine. All of my other sessions felt good up to that point as well. But maybe I'm overestimating my progress, what do you think?

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » January 23rd, 2005, 10:16 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Mark Keating @ Jan 23 2005, 06:48 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>For example, six days ago I set out to improve on my 2K PB. This was my third 2K test in C2's Interactive Programme. The previous four or five weeks had been relatively interruption-free training, and I felt that I had made some good gains in that time - I was using lower stroke rates and maintaining a higher pace for each of the training bands. My previous PB was 7:30.2 (1:52.5/500), and I planned on getting to 7:20 rather easily, maybe even going down to 7:15 or better. My AN work a week earlier seemed to indicate that I was not being unrealistic. So after warmup, I strapped in with the goal of doing 1:50 for the first 1000, then 1:48 for the next 500, then either maintaining 1:48 or possibly dropping to 1:46. I am not sure what happened, and that is the reason for this post, but it was a real struggle from the start. I did maintain 1:50 for the first 1K, but it was a real struggle and I ended up bailing out after about 1400m, feeling very tired (and rather pissed off). Not sure what questions to ask, but would like to hear from those who may have experienced something similar in their training. I took a couple of days off, then "re-erged" my last two workouts. I plan on doing the same test tomorrow (Monday). Thanks, Mark </td></tr></table> To quote the great Larry Bird, "Some days you got it, and some days you ain't." More helpfully, 'success' and 'failure' in training strike me as highly subjective. That is, our perceptions of how we're doing are dependent on the demands we're making on ourselves. And I believe that it's sometimes unclear whether we're underperforming (objectively should have done better) or we're asking too much on a given occasion.... FWIW, and I make no claims to special expertise or accomplishment, I set my current 2k erg best after finishing DFL (dead f***ng last) in an on-water scrimmage. I came home thoroughly frustrated: I'd run over floating lumber, steered a crappy line that gave me 100 extra meters, nearly thwacked a navigation buoy, dropped my water bottle in goose shit on the dock, etc. etc. etc. And I was poised to take out my frustration on the C2. Don't get mad at yourself, or disappointed, or frustrated. Get even with the erg. You may just surprise yourself one of these days. You also might consider trying to smooth out your 2k pace. There is endless debate over 'correct' strategy for the distance. But if you're doing your first thousand meters 5 seconds faster than your pace from your previous PB, you may be asking too much to propose doing the second thousand meters some 10 or 11 seconds faster.....

[old] SlugButt · Post by **[old] SlugButt** » January 23rd, 2005, 10:21 pm

I very much appreciate the topic you posted and the comments so far. After returning to rowing after several years off due to ongoing injury problems, the question of falling short on erg tests is certainly one that is near to my heart. It's taken me time to get comfortable with the fact that there is absoloutely, positively no way that I will pull scores that were comfortable when I was younger. Also, learning how to train without overtraining given my lack of conditioning and (ahem!) age is also a new challenge. I managed to do an excellent job overtraining, injuring myself, etc. last summer in well-intended but stupid efforts to pick up speed as quickly as possible. I am currently doing lots and lots of UT2. Certainly it doesn't "feel" like I'm training to go fast. However, my results appear to be gradually improving after last summer's mistakes. I suppose what I've learned about aiming for goals is patience since, with age, my determination seems to vastly outstrip what my body can manage without injury. Similarly, with testing I will always be learning better pacing, more accurate means of self-monitoring to make sure that the tanks are empty at the end of the race, etc. However, the race is only a reflection of my preparation and nothing will happen on race day that I have not prepared and practiced. Perhaps that's one of the things I love about sculling. There are no tricks, no ways of talking one's way into a good result. It's an honest sport. I respect anyone who chooses to train and test themselves, accepts the results, and decides to continue to improve.

[old] Mr. Bun · Post by **[old] Mr. Bun** » January 23rd, 2005, 11:13 pm

Mark, May I ask your vital stats, like age weight, height? Plus, I was wondering your experience in endurance or strength sports. -- andre

[old] Bill · Post by **[old] Bill** » January 23rd, 2005, 11:38 pm

Hello, Good topic - I am in similar position to yourself with both the times and the frustration. I was rather peeved last October when I was unable to do a PB when I wanted to and dont know what went wrong. Was dreadfully slow and absolutely stuffed. For 2k I have seen some discussion on test pieces in the preceding weeks the three that stick in my mind are 4 x 1k, 8 x 500m and a 1500m @ 2k pace. Problem I had when I tried these was they were incredibly difficult themselves. I use a spreadsheet to keep data from previous pbs and use it to help me to decide what pace and stroke rate I should be trying for next pb attempt Suggestion - maybe stick in the same sheet the data from the attempts that didnt work so you at least keep a track of what you have tried before when you come to next attempt you will try it at (say) 31 spm instead of (say) 33 spm. I am saying things to myself like "Well if I can hold 25spm @ 10mps for a 10k training piece then I should be able to speed up the rate and do approx 9.5m per stroke for a PB so lets try 27spm on the next 10k pb but pull slightly softer" Bill

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » January 24th, 2005, 2:28 am

MK, I started rowing in the fifties, and my strategy has always been fast slow slow fast, as taught by my coach then. Won me lots of pots. Then I saw (2001) the French Protocol on an earlier edition of the Training Manual. It said: do a 500 m test 2-3 days before the race, to get a reliable reference pace; race at 92, 89, 89 and 91% of the 500 test speed. The overall key, apart from having done plenty of endurance work because 2k is a terrible long way, Olympic in fact, is the idea that we are racing, not chasing pbs. And racing means the opposition are going to die by my hand; but I have to wait to 2000m to do the killing. No point in winning at 1000m, it'll be my own blood I'll see which is contrary to my principles. The tactical keys are: rest 3-4 days before the race; start fast, then go what feels like very slow; get to -500 with plenty of reserves so you can look around and row through the opposition. The most important part of the race is from 400 to 1600, where you cruise. Then the interesting bit starts.

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 24th, 2005, 10:04 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Mr. Bun @ Jan 24 2005, 03:13 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mark, May I ask your vital stats, like age weight, height? Plus, I was wondering your experience in endurance or strength sports. -- andre </td></tr></table> 36 years, 6'2", 78 kg (down from 85 kg March 04). Not much experience in either strength or endurance sports, except that I enjoy watching them on the tube! I was a reasonable athlete in high school, but as you can see, that was a long time ago. I began erging in March 04, but my profession (farming) results in significant periods (three to six weeks at a time) where I simply do not have the time to exercise regularly. I have been following the C2 20 week Interactive Programme for a while, 4 workouts per week. I have been able to train interruption free for about 8 weeks now.

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 24th, 2005, 10:19 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(jamesg @ Jan 24 2005, 06:28 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The overall key, apart from having done plenty of endurance work because 2k is a terrible long way, Olympic in fact, is the idea that we are racing, not chasing pbs. </td></tr></table> does the interactive programme provide enough endurance work? I am going to finish the program that I am on, but I am wondering whether I should set up another Interactive Programme or look for an alternate program.

[old] Mr. Bun · Post by **[old] Mr. Bun** » January 24th, 2005, 4:10 pm

I ask the question about your fitness level coming into the sport (age height and weight are important, of course) because seems to me to be a critical component in gauging how realistic is your goal. Unfortunately, I can't comment on your situation because, like you, I am still a "rookie" with less than a year's experience under my belt. I started in March 2004 as well. Yes, I've logged about 2 million meters since then, working out about 5 - 6 sessions per week, but this represents my longest-running fitness program ever, including high school. Just to round things out, I'm 6'0" 175lbs (18% bodyfat) and 40+ years (41 in April). Thus, I'm a lightweight masquerading as a heavyweight. My lack of conditioning has led me to reset my expectations a few times since fairly early on in my training. I expect to follow some performance/time curve that is more gradual than for an erg newbie with marathon-running experience under his belt. On the flip side of that coin, I may actually have a longer period of solid improvements, being that much further from my potential.

[old] Afterburner · Post by **[old] Afterburner** » January 27th, 2005, 11:07 am

The big thing I'm starting to notice making more and more of a difference for my attempts (and not so successful attempts) is diet. Proper hydration for the 2 days before(and day of of course) and especially dinner the night before and food the day of are starting to make just a huge difference for me. I find I'm at least a second slower on the average if I screw these up. The stroke rate also makes a big difference. When I'm too high I just feel over fatigued and sloppy, when I'm too low my legs burn like unholy heck and I just can't keep the split. It's one of those annoying balance acts that just takes a lot of tries to figure out, which is frustrating cause they're not all going to be good. Me, I'm shooting for finally breaking 7:30 next week, we'll see what happens. Heather Johnson F20 150lbs 5'7" 2k 7:32.2 20min 5057 30min 7481 100k 9:07:27.7

[old] nkoffler · Post by **[old] nkoffler** » January 27th, 2005, 11:30 am

OFF TOPIC Did anyone else notice Mr. Bun's signature photo? Should Ben-Hur be listed amongst the best rowing movies? What was the stroke rate in the battle? Do coxwains still use whips? Neil

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » January 27th, 2005, 3:42 pm

no offense, but besides the correlation of thier being rowing in ben-hur, I would not consider it a rowing movie. The best rowing movie by far is "A Fine Balance" made by a rower for rowers about rowers. Theres a uk movie that is pretty good too called "the boat race"about the mutiny boat race in the late 70's I think? It was a long time ago that I saw it so I can't remeber too many facts about it, but it was good, also very rare in the U.S.