Age related decline

[boris lafayette]

Hi All

This is my first post, I am not sure I am legitimate to interfere with you guys, as i am far from being an athlete, and now aging 57.
I just want to thank the elderly rowers who, as I can see in the rankings, reach better performances than mine, it keeps me rowing, trying to improve, and stay strong and healthy.
Hats off gentlemen !

[Mark E]

Max, here's a good article from Outside's Alex Hutchinson (he's probably the best popular audience author who writes about exercise physiology IMO).

https://www.outsideonline.com/2405907/e ... alth-study

It touches on some of the same research cited in the Cardiology paper, but makes it much more approachable. Hutchinson's conclusion is somewhat reassuring ... basically that "extreme exercise" does seem to produce increases in calcium deposits and artery "hardening," but the overall mortality outcomes are much more positive than negative on balance.

[Mark E]

Jim G wrote: "I doubt if that is a universally held idea. In the first place, what is the distance. 1500m training is way different than marathon training. Same thing with rowing. 2000m is a tricky distance. That's why people hate it. Intervals certainly play a huge role. Lactate threshold training may be most important of all. One is going to operate right at the AT threshold virtually the entire 2000m. Complicated subject - training that is."

Your comment got me wondering about what kind of training volume is common for elite 1500/800 runners. Lo and behold, I fond this recent analysis from a running coach on letsrun.com, a popular forum for high-level runners.

I'm not arguing that running and rowing have the same demands, but volume is pretty high for these athletes -- comparable to the 100-120 MPW that most elite marathoners log. Far more miles than I'd try to replicate, for sure, but I'd offer it as evidence that even athletes that focus on shorter events perform loads of low-intensity training. Nobody but nobody is doing 80 miles per week of intervals.

Really just food for thought.

--

Weekly mileage totals for elites at 1500/800

Snell and Cerutty ran 100+ miles per week.
Steve Scott was in the 90s.
The Ingebrigtsens run 100+
Lewandowski is 100+
Centro was 90-100+ at NOP
Blankenship runs 100
Houlihan is around 90
Ryan Gregson and the MTC guys are 90-100
I think Walker was pretty high as well

On the low volume side
Brits Charlie Grice, Josh Kerr and Jake Wightman are in the 70s
Robby Andrews in the 70s
Webb was in the 70s
Shannon Rowbury is 70-80s
Engels is70-80s
Willis is in the 80s on 6 days a week

Overall there is a range, but 70-80s is pretty standard -- plenty of guys and gals run more.

[G-dub]

Jim, I don’t know either. All I notice is that when I row through a rest period and a new interval starts, the first couple of pulls are at faster pace and then they get on track. I definitely am not pointing fingers! It’s just a thought/question because I pondered doing it for 2K once - setting up the machine for 4 x 500 no rest between so that I was only seeing 500 or less. But I just assumed it would have given me some free speed on the beginning of each interval. But I’d be happy if I was worried about nothing! Anyway...great to see you killing it again! You going to ATL sprints this year?

[max_ratcliffe]

Jim, I don’t know either. All I notice is that when I row through a rest period and a new interval starts, the first couple of pulls are at faster pace and then they get on track. I definitely am not pointing fingers! It’s just a thought/question because I pondered doing it for 2K once - setting up the machine for 4 x 500 no rest between so that I was only seeing 500 or less. But I just assumed it would have given me some free speed on the beginning of each interval. Anyway...great to see you killing it again! You going to ATL sprints this year?

I haven't tested this, but my guess is that Jim's score is fine. If the PM did allow for this, could we not set it for 50 intervals (or however many are possible) and then clock a 4min 2k?

[Cyclingman1]

Concept 2 states plainly in their ranking notes that interval setup is not allowed for ranked pieces. I say that now because I never bothered to read that before. Regardless, I won't do it again. I usually just keep track of where I am on the countdown of distance and, if I want, adjust pace. Or if it works out, set up the splits. The split avg pace is available. Still, it would be nice to know what sort of funky calculations Concept 2 is up to at the start of an interval. I'll have to look for that now on my real interval workouts.

If the PM did allow for this, could we not set it for 50 intervals (or however many are possible) and then clock a 4min 2k?

That would be an interesting experiment. Who wants to try it?


Glenn, will be going to Ga Tech if I can stay on track. Went last yr even though I was still in the midst of recovery. Like to have killed me to do 7:20. That won't do this time. I guess you and Ed are on OTW guys now. I'm sure less stressful than erg 2K's.

[Cyclingman1]

One more blow against the aging decline story.

Today. 2000m, C2 verified, 7:06.5 @1:46.6, DF/SPM 161/34, W/s: 289/34 = 8.5.

No way was I going to leave my last 2K hanging out there with my interval technique. Tired today after 2K on Thurs. Got some seconds left in these "aging" bones.

Glenn, You been losing weight? Your signature makes it look like you are wasting away to nothing.

[Cyclingman1]

Mark, The idea that really high mileage every week is the key to success has come up time and again spread through this forum. I don't debunk aerobic conditioning. Of course, it is necessary. Elite athletes need every edge they can get. But I really wonder if there are not plenty of really good endurance athletes who do really well with a pretty high dose of tempo runs, lactate threshold work, and a variety of intervals in addition to LSD, but not mega miles. There have been guys in this forum who claim to have gone on long mileage programs, but have been disappointed in results. Perhaps they did not stick to it. But whatever works. If slogging out 100K+ a week produces results, go for it. It's not for me.

[Mark E]

Jim, I hear you for sure. Elites with all day to train are the obvious candidates to log both high mileage and high-intensity. The formula that pro runners and cyclists generally follow is 80/20, but it's definitely less boring -- and perhaps more efficient for quite comparable results -- to do something like 60/40, or even a bigger a shift in favor of intensity. Especially for rowing which is a very power-based endurance sport.

A good poster boy for a masters athlete who regularly destroys competitors a third of his age is the cyclist Ned Overend. Deadly Nedly focuses on intervals and strength training, and says he has all the high volume training he'll ever need already in his legs.

On the other hand, Ed Whitlock (RIP) re-wrote masters running records in his 60s, 70s and 80s, including sub-3 hour marathons and sub-40 10Ks at ridiculously advanced years. All he did for decades was race and slog through very slow three-hour laps through in a graveyard near his house. Weird, but it worked for him. He also had some good lines about how he hated training in his advanced years but he kept at it solely because he enjoyed setting new records.

[Cyclingman1]

Yes, I read Joel Friel book "Fast After 50" shortly after it came out in 2015. I don't recall a lot of detail, but I do remember that he emphasizes intensity in workouts. I was already doing most everything he recommends, generally speaking. I think I have been the voice for intensity in this forum for the past 9 years, long before Friel's book. Like he says it is hard to do both: long, slow and/or intensity. An older person only has so much energy. I really do not have a training program, so I could not break down by percentage what I do. I usually get on the rower, do a little warmup, and decide what I'll do that day. Sometimes I plan. I knew today that I had to do a 2K to get a C2 certified time. Tomorrow I have no idea. May be 6x200 or 5K or ???

[G-dub]

Yeah Jim. Somehow I’ve gotten down to 190lbs. Haven’t seen that weight in more than 30 years. As to 2Ks, I’m ashamed to admit I’m not sure I have it in me to give it a proper go again. I’m erging at the moment, though (not seeing the same splits however). Who knows, maybe I’ll cowboy up and see you down there again. I owe you a rematch and by the look of things it looks like I’d have a tough time hanging with you. Stay healthy this time!

As to the ongoing discussion, it’s becoming more and more apparent to me and my physiology that a program with more intensity is where it’s at. I’m not really sure the time put into low intensity paid off in several ways - probably because I didn’t put enough time into it. Next go around I’m going to do more of the hard stuff and get tougher

[Edward4492]

I continue to be fascinated as to why everyone insists on referring to "Joe Friel" as "Joel" Friel. This is so common amongst endurance athletes it's almost comical (I still do it and I know better). Rowing OTW is so dependent on clean, efficient technique that the heavy mileage training may be more effective in grooving technique, independent of the physical training aspects. Cycling, running, and erging technique are not in the same league as proper blade work in a boat. It's not so much about making the boat go fast as it is about not slowing it down. And Jim, you are correct on several counts. OTW competitions are way less stressful (IMO) than 2k erg events. I did four trips to CB's and would start to stress out several weeks before; add to that the stress of making LWT and the dieting. The boat is so much fun and there is so much going on that I usually don't really realize how deep I went until after the race. Also in the boat, you can't just completely throw yourself into it; you'll go slower and maybe flip. You need to maintain technique while going as hard as you can. In addition the Speed Coach in OTW is nowhere near as precise as the PM5. Conditions will affect results significantly. My fastest ever 1k event was 3:53 on heavy current. My fastest on flat water is 4:17. My best race finish (3rd of 6) was 4:10. When I would go to an erg event I knew exactly what split I needed to hit. The pressure is on from the first stroke. And OTW, masters do 1000m sprints and 4k-6k head races. We get a pass on that nasty 2k event. So you are correct Jim, haven't sworn off erg events; but I'm not sure if I'll be doing anymore. Ever.

BTW- Nice 2k Jim!

[ukaserex]

Folks, I'm no scientist. The only evidence I can offer is stuff I've heard/read.

Sarcopenia - as we age, we lose muscle mass. Particularly men notice this, because we tend to have more to lose. It's more noticeable.

Sleep/recovery - as we age, so do our children! And as they age, they make all kinds of stupid decisions despite our advice. Small wonder many of us don't get the sleep we need! That's just one reason - but work, politics, all manner of things can put a damper on our sleep/recovery.

Nutrition - Presumably, as we age, while our mortgages remain the same, our salaries increase. This results in more "disposable" income - and sometimes that extra is put into nights out, rather than having more control over what we eat. Or more scotch. Whatever it may be, if nutrition isn't on track, our performance won't be either.

There's likely a longer list of factors that can go into a performance decline. But, I just want to add this:

Our bodies can adapt to whatever we put them through. None of us need to fret over our 2k row time. If we only get 6:53 or 7:53, it doesn't matter unless we were going to get paid for our results. All we can do is enjoy the time we get to row. We don't have to row - we GET to row. Find a way to make it fun and/or interesting, and that really should be enough to stave off the days when we need help getting out of a chair.

But -if you're like me and you like to be competitive, we must remind ourselves that we win competitions by what we're doing when we're not rowing more so than what we do on the rower. Don't kid yourself into thinking that 30 to 80 minutes on the rower is enough. We need to eat right and sleep as much as our schedule permits. And we need to try and stay off the couch when we're not at work, and not rowing. The body is designed for movement.

[Cyclist2]

So you are correct Jim, haven't sworn off erg events; but I'm not sure if I'll be doing anymore. Ever.

BTW- Nice 2k Jim!

I'm with Ed. However, I rowed OTW before the heavy erg years. Circumstances "forced" me to erg if I wanted any rowing at all, and the erg races satisfied my competitive urge (along with bike racing). Now, however, I'm back on the water and the erg is again a training tool, rather than the main focus. I still like pushing myself on the erg, though. It's a good solid workout that is easy to quantify and compare to previous/future efforts - to try to fight that phenomenon of this thread subject. I may do more erg races, but just as support to my club mates if they want to try it out.

Jim, I'm amazed at your return to those levels. I recall the threads of a couple years ago when it seemed your body was done. Glad it's not.

[Cyclingman1]

Jim, I'm amazed at your return to those levels. I recall the threads of a couple years ago when it seemed your body was done. Glad it's not.

Mark, thanks for the comment. You're right, I was way past mild injury or recovery from a ordinary surgery. For a while [months] I thought I was done with any exercise in the future. Finally, I started feeling better. Sometimes the body just works slowly. This summer on the bike was very helpful. Now, I'm seeing light at the end of tunnel. I think if I got to 7:00, it would have to be considered a small miracle. I'm not even remotely religious, but maybe a higher power is helping me.

Regarding, OTW. I thought that I would be doing that. I tried going to a rowing venue a few yrs ago, but it was so poorly run, haphazard, etc that I just could not deal with it/them. Very unpleasant. I was a single scull guy, of course, my being a "me" person.