Given The Choice..

[[old] ranger]

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->s far as we can or want to reach absolute measures, I think W/kg is the simplest and nearest. JR's value for the 500 looks not bad, even good, a lot higher than mine anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br><br>At 50, Graham Watt rows close to 1:25 for 500m. This is typical of those with fully developed power/speed, such as Graham Benton. Rowers of this sort do about 7.5 watts/kg for 500m, not 5 watts/kg. <br><br>Watt's 500m time is almost 15 seconds per 500 better than John's! If that is not a _heck_ of a lot, I don't know what is.<br><br>I haven't worked on the 500m much, but I suspect I could also row in the area of 1:25-1:26 for 500m, too, if I trained for it specifically, and I am now 54 years old. So Watt's age relative to John's, I think, is also somewhat irrelevant. <br><br>For the best rowers, 5 watts/kg is about what they achieve in a 2K, not a 500m.<br><br>ranger

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mel Harbour+Jan 20 2005, 11:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Jan 20 2005, 11:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll just toss something else into the ring.  You're busily quoting the Danes as the example of how the best way to perform is.  Yet you overlook the fact that they are not typical. </td></tr></table><br /><br />To the contrary, it is EE and his team NOT being "typical" is the POINT.<br /><br />THE EXCEPTION PROVES THE RULE.<br /><br />Thus, it is YOU who is overlooking this.<br /><br />The Danish and Italians both rated 39 spm in the Olympic final. Both teams are medalists. Both are very small countries, much smaller than the U.S. and Australia.<br /><br />Yet they kicked butt. Obviously they know what they are doing, and what they are doing is being "overlooked" by others.<br /><br />As to pacing, no one said they did an even pace. Even on the erg, EE's pace is quite erratic, i.e. fast start, settling for the bulk of the race, and fast finish. I think he wastes a lot of energy with his start but it DOES work for him, being the long time WORLD RECORD holder and OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST.<br /><br />Also, perhaps you are overlooking that EE and his team lead the Olympic final from start to finish. They were well in the lead at the 1/2 way mark, so all the had to do was conserve energy in the 3rd 500 and then take it in to the finish.<br /><br />That's what they did.<br /><br />Finally, conditions and splits are not so accurate on the water, as they are on the erg.<br />

[[old] Seraaahhhh]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 21 2005, 09:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 21 2005, 09:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /><br />To the contrary, it is EE and his team NOT being "typical" is the POINT. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ok so you've finally accepted that the Danes are NOT typical! How similar to the Danes do you expect the people reading this forum to be?<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 21 2005, 09:52 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 21 2005, 09:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->THE EXCEPTION PROVES THE RULE. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I find this statement hilarious - do you have a degree in philosophy or something? Because if you do, I'd be seriously questioning the University that taught you about logical reasoning...<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Since that was your first post, I will forgive you for being clueless. <br /><br />However, you have apparently been here before, thus you --should-- know that I have NEVER ever said the DANES (ah ha, some one else mentioned the DANES, perhaps you are that same person ha ha) are typical.<br /><br />To the contrary, they are NOT typical.<br /><br />THE EXCEPTION PROVES THE RULE.<br /><br />And for your information I got straight A's in Philosophy as well as Statistics.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mel Harbour+Jan 20 2005, 11:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Jan 20 2005, 11:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're busily quoting the Danes </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In their race the Danes </td></tr></table><br />Ahh..... ha ha ha........

[[old] Mel Harbour]

Why would I need to post using a different name?!<br /><br />Sarah's not the same person as me, I'm pretty sure of that fact!<br /><br />Oh, btw, the staggering reason why we both used the word 'Dane' is rather given away by the following excerpt from dictionary.com:<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dane  <br />  1. A native or inhabitant of Denmark.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />*Shrugs* But if you'd rather I just said 'the native or inhabitants of Denmark were rowing' instead that's fine with me!<br /><br />Just for a giggle, I thought I'd get you a reference for that phrase you're loving at the moment:<br /><br />'The exception proves the rule'<br /><br /><a href='http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dict ... 82039.html' target='_blank'>http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dict ... tml</a><br /><br />I love the last sentence! And that's exactly the point John, no-one's trying to argue with you about whether the Danes (sorry, natives or inhabitants of Denmark) do certain things when they race. The point is that where you're going spectacularly wrong is that you don't have any information about why they might be doing what they're doing. You also then make sweeping statements about huge portions of training theory based on one tiny piece of data.<br /><br />For example, you've gone on at some length about the fact that you believe that heavier people go faster on ergos, no matter what the reason for their increased weight. As always, you got there by reading half the information and then turning off your brain's ability to gather more information. For example, amongst a group of elite oarsmen and women (light and heavyweight), it <i>was indeed</i> found that body mass was correlated with 2000m ergo performance. Taking that fact in isolation would point to your theory being correct. However if you read on in the same study, you find that 2000m performance was also negatively correlated with mass of body fat. So in other words, the full picture points to the fact that it's fat free mass that's important, and that fat actually appears to slow you down (no big surprise).<br /><br />You're doing a similar thing with the Danes (ooops, natives or inhabitants of Denmark) - taking a couple of pieces of information about them and then making full predictions that require other facts without being in posession of the other facts.<br /><br />Mel

[[old] Seraaahhhh]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 21 2005, 10:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 21 2005, 10:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since that was your first post, I will forgive you for being clueless.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />My god, I feel honoured to be forgiven by you...<br />Clueless? Now, I may be blonde, but that's just about where the similarity with Alicia Silverstone ends...<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 21 2005, 10:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 21 2005, 10:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />THE EXCEPTION PROVES THE RULE.<br /><br />And for your information I got straight A's in Philosophy as well as Statistics. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As I said, I'd doubt the credibility of the institution that awarded you those - I know if you were where I am now, you certainly wouldn't get very far spouting claims like that!<br /><br />Perhaps the reason why you feel you have to row a shorter distance per stroke is because you're a runner and have short hamstrings! <br /><br />When I won my novice pot I was under-rating the 'fat girls' by a good 4-5 pips - I could just move the scull much more efficiently than they could!

[[old] John Rupp]

Long time World Record holder, Eskild Ebbesen, rows at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />He is much taller, heavier, younger, and probably also much stronger than I am, so I feel the same meters per stroke, or less, is good enough for me too.

[[old] hwt]

Really John, it is not necessary to be so defensive about everything.

[[old] Mel Harbour]

You really don't bother to read what people write, do you John?<br /><br />Like I said, Sarah's most definitely not the same person as me (and there's a good chance that there's probably someone reading this who could confirm that).<br /><br />Hamstring length (as in flexibility, which is what she is talking about) is unrelated to height. In fact, people with longer legs often exhibit less flexibility in their hip joints.<br /><br />Also, Sarah never said anything about her coaching. She doesn't coach at the moment at all.<br /><br />Just for another laugh, here's a bit more Ruppian logic:<br /><br />Both John Rupp and PaulS both used the word 'the' in their posts. Therefore they must obviously be the same person. Own up to it, both of you! <br /><br />Mel

[[old] Physicist]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and there's a good chance that there's probably someone reading this who could confirm that </td></tr></table><br /><br />happy to. Sarah is his girlfriend I believe.<br /><br />But it does raise the question of why she bothered to register just to bash her head against this particular brick wall? I understand the frustration Mel, but I'd just give up if I were you. You're demonstrated to anyone else reading that he's an idiot - that's all you're going to be able to achieve

[[old] Mel Harbour]

She'd spilt some tea into her laptop, which had caused a minor crisis for a bit, so she was a bit stressed when she was reading the thread!<br /><br />I'm only really posting on this thread cos there aren't any more interesting threads to post on at the moment for me.<br /><br />My only real concern is to make sure that people are aware that just because someone shouts loudly about their theories doesn't necessarily make them right.

[[old] Seraaahhhh]

<br />

I know if you were where I am now, you certainly wouldn't get very far spouting claims like that!

<br />Alabama? <br />

<br /><br />No, not Alabama. Try the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean in a place of 'dreaming spires' and a name taken by a town in Massachusetts. Or is that riddle too complicated for you? <br /><br />

Perhaps the reason why you feel you have to row a shorter distance per stroke is because you're a runner and have short hamstrings!

<br />Wrong, again. I have quite a high inseam for my height <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Funny that - it said you were a runner on your website... (Amazing what information you can get off Google...)<br /><br />

<br />How noble of you. <br /><br />Someone with a pot like yours has no business coaching women. <br />

<br /><br />Well, thats cool since I don't coach women. I coach men, but not at the moment as I'm too busy doing other things. Which reminds me, I'd better stop wasting time on here and get back to my schedule for beating Oxford in March.<br />

[[old] SimonB]

<Edited for pointless comment>

[[old] John Rupp]

The real test is not in some scientific study or research with lab rats, but what top rowers actually do in their training and competition.<br /><br />We know these things very well.<br /><br />Eskild Ebbesen, and more recently Graham Watt, World Record holder in the 50+ division, both lightweights, row at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />What these World Record holders actually do is more relevant than any psuedo scientific studies.