Weight Training For Erging

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » January 14th, 2005, 1:56 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Yoda1 @ Jan 12 2005, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 9 reps at 4 seconds per rep equals 36 seconds. Now you take a break. Maybe 1 minute and then repeat this two more times. If my math is correct you will have spent 108 seconds of exercising plus 2 minutes of rest. With SS, you will have spent 120 seconds of exercising with NO rest. A major increase in intensity.  </td></tr></table> But this isn't really a comparison of intensity when you have to use half the load is it? Also why is 120secs the 'magical' time and why 6 reps? Why not 1rep or 20 reps? Paul

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 14th, 2005, 4:31 pm

Paul, SS can be done several different ways. Example; 5 seconds negative, 15 seconds positive, or you could even reverse that. You pick. Arthur Jones originally wanted everyone to do 2 seconds neg. and 4 seconds pos. It wasn't until Ken Hutchins took over as the SS guru that the timing changed. Nothing says that you have to do 6 reps either. Many trainers across the country still use an 8-10 rep range. There are some SS advocates that use a 1 minute rep. and that is a set. The problem with SS is that to many people want the easy way. SS, when done correctly is extremely difficult. Actually more difficult mentally than physically if you ask me. So, if we changed the protocol to a 30 second rep for, say 4-5 reps, do you think more people would do SS? Or if we changed it to what Arthur wanted, how about then? I don't think so. My experience with a lot folks is the 15-20 second rep for one set and a total of approximately 90 to 120 seconds works best. And the only reason I'm saying a 90 set is because some exercises have such a short range of motion it's almost impossible to hit the 120 seconds. Squats-if you have a dipping belt that would work while standing on two boxes. The other suggestion would be to do "Barrel Squats". You'd just need to get a 30 gallon plastic drum with the lid. If you like a challenge, that would be the exercise to try. Intensity-Two men are going to run 300 yards. They are equal in talent and ability. The first man runs as hard as he can. Full out. He covers the distance in 120 seconds. The second man runs as hard as he can, but stops and rests at 100 yards for 60 seconds, then runs the next 100 yards, then rests for 60 seconds again, then finishes the race. Not counting the rests, the second man covered the distance in 120 seconds. Both men covered the distance in the same time. But who had the higher level of intensity? Hope that answers your questions. John, I was competing just a few years ahead of you. And we both lifted in the same weight class. Those aren't bad lifts for someone your height. You had to be the tallest lightweight competing. I always thought I was tall because there weren't to many folks in that class, at that level, that were taller than me. You competed right after they removed the press from competition. Boy, you talk about backbends. Some of us were so accomplished at bending backward it was more a bench press that a press. That's why they took it out. Shame, it was my favor lift of the 3 olympic lifts. Oh well, Yoda

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » January 14th, 2005, 4:44 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Yoda1 @ Jan 14 2005, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Intensity-Two men are going to run 300 yards. They are equal in talent and ability. The first man runs as hard as he can. Full out. He covers the distance in 120 seconds. The second man runs as hard as he can, but stops and rests at 100 yards for 60 seconds, then runs the next 100 yards, then rests for 60 seconds again, then finishes the race. Not counting the rests, the second man covered the distance in 120 seconds. Both men covered the distance in the same time. But who had the higher level of intensity? Hope that answers your questions.  </td></tr></table> Hmmmm I still think that this is not a valid arguement as again you are not including the fact that 'traditional' training involves larger weights being used. For your example to apply I think the man doing the run in intervals would need to be carrying a 50kg backpack for example, then the comparison as to who ran more 'intensely' is not as clear cut, IMO. Thanks for the other comments, if I try the workout again I'll use a few kilo's on the squats. Paul

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 14th, 2005, 5:21 pm

Yoda, Are you a runner too. Nice to meet another rower / x weightlifter. They got rid of the press right after I'd done a few competitions and started to master it. At the beginning I had a very difficult time with the press, mostly pressing everything straight up and around 145 pounds. Then I got some good suggestions, started doing a LOT of singles, then incline presses on the bench. We always did the lifts first, then squats, then I'd do the inclines after that. My press shot up fast. First to 180, then 205, then either 215 or 220 (would have to check my log). They got rid of it after that but the clean & jerk and snatch were still my best lifts anyway. I was getting very muscular haha. If I remember correctly I did a 135-155 or so in the one arm snatch. Then I did an 800 meter time trial on the track, with zero training, was disappointed, gave up the weightlifting and went back to running. It was a great experience though.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 14th, 2005, 8:32 pm

Damn Paul, You sure are picky. I'll rephase (is that a word) it then. Man #1 weighs 150 pounds and Man#2 weighs 200 pounds. Gawd, I haven't had to use this much grey matter in years. The point that I'm trying to make is that one method is using momentum to lift a given poundage and the other is using none. One has rest intermixed with the work and the other is spending the whole time working without rest. The intensities may be equal initially, but as soon as the rest comes in, the intensity drops. Now does that do it? One other comment Paul, SS is any exercise that does not have momentum. Are you going to try the Barrel Squat? John, I used to run. And I enjoyed it until one day at the end of a 10K a tall skinney guy walked up to me and said, "I watched you out there today. But, you're at a severe disadvantage with this running thing. People that are built like you aren't meant to run, they are meant to push over buildings. People built like me are meant to run". I thought about it for a long time and decided he was right. Certain builds are better for certain athletics. Now if I could only do something about these ears. Yoda

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » January 15th, 2005, 1:36 pm

OK went for a second session this morning. Bench used 50kg and failed half way up the sixth rep so that weights about right. Pulldown I added a couple of Kg and got the 6 reps, feel it was still a bit light. Squats I just hung 5kg on a chain around my waist but got 10reps so will try 10kg next time. Dbell press was the same as last time. All at 10/10. For warm ups I'm doing a couple of sets of light weight sets at normal speeds.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 15th, 2005, 4:23 pm

Paul, How many pullups can you do?

[old] anthonys · Post by **[old] anthonys** » January 16th, 2005, 7:47 pm

Well, I've been lifting SS for 5 years now. I just graduated to one 25 minutes session every 10 days - why? because I need that time to RECOVER from the previous workout. The critical operational variable in SS is TUT, that is, Time Under Tension. It is NOT number of repetitions. The entire purpose of a SS set is to bring the muscular to complete failure in the shortest time possible. The SS protocol is complete unto itself: no need for additional "cardio," whatever the f that is; no need for Pilates (flexibility w/o strength is a prescription for injury); Yoga is nice because it indeed enhances the concentration required to perform a SS rep correctly. there are many variables that one can employ in a SS routine, as is also the case with any strength training protocol. One can vary volume within a workout; frequency within a period of time; intensity across volume over time. One needs, however, to pay specific attention to the effects those variations have on the performance variable one has chosen by which to judge whether the strength training protocol is "working." Having said all that, I never expect my SS training to prepare me for rowing a 7' 2k. I get to that level of competency by rowing!!! Will prior strength training help? Who knows. Give it a try and then look to see if it does. As I noted in an earlier post here, I can routinely, w/ no sport specific training ride my mountain bike 25 miles in 2 hours; my road bike 50 miles in 3 hours or so, and row 10k in 48 min at any time I choose. Could I do better in those sports if I sport-specfici trained? No doubt. Has SS helped me to be in good enough condition to do those recreational activities at those levels of intensity? Hell, I don't know. I've not done the experiment, and, at almost 67 yoa, it doesn't matter to me. If, however, you want to test yourself with a real challenge, go to a gym with some good MedX equipment. Get the geek who works there and who's trying to sell you a membership to help you establish your max 1RM per machine (or perhaps you already knowit). In any event , take about 85% of your max 1RM, hop on the machine, making certain that you have been fit to the machine in terms of seat placement, etc, and then perform the postiive in about 10 seconds and the negative in about 10 seconds being careful at the turnarounds, top and bottom, neither to lock out nor to bottom out: we're talking continuous motion here, boys and girls - no cheating. When you absolutely can't move the weights any more, hold the weight in a non locked out or bottom out position until your musculature fails completely and the weights fall. tony Slow WorksTM, LLC Flourtown, PA

[old] kwadams · Post by **[old] kwadams** » January 18th, 2005, 11:27 am

Tony-- I'm into my second week of SS now and it seems to be working. I had tried doing two smaller workouts per week (3 days apart), but last week I only did some isometric exercises (anybody remember the old "Bullworker"?) on the second day since I hadn't fully recovered yet. We'll see how this week comes along as to whether I try a second one in a few days. I know right now my arms/forearms are having a tough time typing this, that's how tired they are after this AM's workout. Would you be willing to share what exercises you are currently doing? I'm still fine-tuning my program (with Yoda's great help) and am always interested in what others are doing. This AM I did bench press, leg lift, lat pull, leg curl, and upright row (in that order). When I was done, I did some ab work (not really SS) and finished off (literally) by doing a SS push-up set to total failure on my 4th rep. If I feel up to it on Friday, I plan to do shoulder press, squat (body weight), pec deck, calf raises, seated row, and maybe some arm curls or tricep push downs if I feel like it. I've really enjoyed this whole concept, since by only lifting once or maybe twice per week, it's allowed me more time to concentrate on rowing and spinning on the other days (I used to lift 5-6 days a week). I feel like I've already made great gains and am looking forward to continuing along to see what happens. Thanks for any further advice you'd like to provide. Kevin

[old] anthonys · Post by **[old] anthonys** » January 18th, 2005, 5:54 pm

Kevin, I workout now once very 10 days on each occurrence of which I do either an A, B or C routine. A routine looks like this: neck extension (nautilus neck machine), chest press, compound row, (both on Natilus Nitro), lateral raise (MedX), abdominal machine (Hammer MTS), and leg press (Nautiulus 2nd Generation). B routine: leg extension and hip extension (both on the Hammer Strength MTS), stiff leg dead lift (Nautilus Smith machine), pec fly (Nitro), lateral pulldown (MedX w/ fused movement arms), overhead press (MedX w/ fused movement arms); C routine: leg curls (Hammer MTS), calf raise (Cybex), squat w/ straight bar and plates, incline chest press (Nautilus Smith), pulldown (close grip w/ V-bar on Icarian pulldown machine), seated behind the back tricep extension (Icarian mulit-gym), abs (Nautilus 2nd gen). All exercises, except for leg press are done to a 1 minute TUT with a weight leading to complete failure in that time; leg press is for 1.5 minutes. Approximately 2 minutes between each machine to forestall the transient global amnesia I was experiencing w/ 30 seconds between machines. Within the 10 day time frame between SS workouts, I row 2-3 times at whatever I feel like doing when I hop on the C2. Spring and summer and fall, I'll mountain bike or road bike, or trail run at whatever distance, frequency, and intensity feels like fun. I have found that less is more, so that, while I have a lot of volume and high intensity within a workout, I'll get enough recovery by reducing the frequency. The results speak for themselves. I'm 170 pounds w/ a measured (today) 9.8% body fat @ 5'7" w/ a small frame. My resting metabolic rate was 1980 last October, having increased from 1620 16 months or so before. I'm 66 yoa and a former ultra-marathoner w/ a PB of 7 hours 40 plus minutes for a flat course 50 mile done in 1981. HTH, tony

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » January 18th, 2005, 8:20 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 2 seconds neg. and 4 seconds pos  </td></tr></table> Yoda, Are you sure that it wasn't 2 second positive and 4 second negative? GW

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 18th, 2005, 10:35 pm

GW, Nope!!!! I'm not sure. Either will work, I think, duh!!! Yoda

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » January 18th, 2005, 11:42 pm

The reason behind the slower rate in the negative phase is that the lifter is stronger in that phase and can control lowering the weight stack for the longer period. Arthur Jones was also a big proponent of occasional negative only reps. You would have a training partner or trainer assist you through the positve phase and count you down slowly through the negative phase. GW

[old] Tom_Pinckney · Post by **[old] Tom_Pinckney** » January 19th, 2005, 8:03 am

Seems like this weight program could be cut back some. Doing multiple exercises that affect the same bodypart could result in overtraining along with quickly becoming bored with the program resulting in quitting completely. Doing the same program with perhaps A & B days (push/pull or upper/lower body W.Os) and work at greater intensity with fewer sets/exercises & reps in my opinion is a better choice. Too much is not always better.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » January 19th, 2005, 8:18 am

GW, I wasn't being a smart ass about not remembering. It's been a long time since I've read or re-read any of Arthur Jones stuff. I do remember going to one of the Nautilus Only Gyms many years ago and they were training their clients utilizing Super Sets. In other words, the machines were set up to perform 2 exercises, working the same body part, without leaving that peice of equipment. I can remember doing leg press then immediately doing leg extension. This kinda went againest everything that he was saying, though. Because the idea was to go to failure on one exercise so that there wasn't a need to do a second exercise. And the were teaching this with his blessing. Negatives are great if a person is trying to get ready for a powerlifting meet. Personally, I can't see the need for them when the goal is to gain strength and endurance for a given sport. We do change the timing with our clients periodically. Example; We'll change the timing to 15 seconds down with 5 seconds up. Or 5 seconds down and 15 seconds up. But it is for only one session. It's meant to kinda thrown the body a little off balance. It works because many times on the following workout the clients resistance will go up. We do try to stay with a overall total timing of 20 seconds per rep, though. For us, it seems to work best. Yoda