How to find most "efficient" stroke rate for SLOW pieces

[mattBLiTZ]

Hello all. I have quite a specific question that I'm hoping someone has some insight for

I'm planning on rowing my first 100km on the erg next spring at 5'8 242 lbs (173cm, 110 kg - my main sport is powerlifting) and shooting for a quite modest 2:59 pace (60 watts) simply to challenge myself to survive such an overwhelming distance with quite minimal rest periods for someone very much not suited toward this sort of endurance feat. I was thinking about what stroke rate would be the most efficient in this case. From what I've gathered, faster stroke rate is generally more efficient within reason, as it puts the a bit more load on the aerobic system and less on the muscles to generate more power per stroke. However, 2:59 speed is a pretty trivial speed to achieve, as I would usually do multi-hour rate 18 work at 2:23-ish currently (and surely much faster by next spring!) - so I am wondering if it would actually make sense to use an even lower stroke rate at a low drag factor.

I mention my weight/proportions because I am specifically wondering how much energy I would potentially be wasting by rowing at a higher stroke per minute regardless of how much pressure I'm putting into the strokes. Am I on to something here, or am I just overthinking it? Basically I'm just wondering at what point is most of my energy being used to travel up and down the slide, and I'm not even really conserving any energy by rowing at a particular pace rather than simply lowering the spm and adding more pressure to end things quicker.

Sorry for the rather odd and specific question. Cheers for any help that can be offered

[Dangerscouse]

I didn't find stroke rate variations helped much and I just settled on what felt good, which was usually r21. Considering I have always felt more comfy at r28 (I did my first FM at r28) I think this is quite reliable even though I'm taller than you. Your strength has to be used to your advantage so slow and low is your best option.

It is very easy to over think this distance, but getting used to circa 50km+ in a session will be a lot more beneficial. Your biggest enemy will be your own mind at this distance, but with good nutrition and training you will be fine.

When you say "multi-hour" how many hours are we talking about? The pace doesn't need to drop that much if you're already doing long sessions. +15-20 on a FM average pace worked for me for all of my 50km+ sessions, and I lowered drag to 115 from my usual 125ish.

Your biggest issue is the preparation of your central nervous system. Your CNS is prepared over a long period of regular long distances, and I did a minimum of an FM every weekend for about two months before my 12hr challenge, but be careful that you make sure that get enough rest too. It's a fine balance between enough and too much.

[mattBLiTZ]

I didn't find stroke rate variations helped much and I just settled on what felt good, which was usually r21. Considering I have always felt more comfy at r28 (I did my first FM at r28) I think this is quite reliable even though I'm taller than you. Your strength has to be used to your advantage so slow and low is your best option.

It is very easy to over think this distance, but getting used to circa 50km+ in a session will be a lot more beneficial. Your biggest enemy will be your own mind at this distance, but with good nutrition and training you will be fine.

When you say "multi-hour" how many hours are we talking about? The pace doesn't need to drop that much if you're already doing long sessions. +15-20 on a FM average pace worked for me for all of my 50km+ sessions, and I lowered drag to 115 from my usual 125ish.

Your biggest issue is the preparation of your central nervous system. Your CNS is prepared over a long period of regular long distances, and I did a minimum of an FM every weekend for about two months before my 12hr challenge, but be careful that you make sure that get enough rest too. It's a fine balance between enough and too much.

FM at 28!? Incredible. Okay, this is definitely some excellent info for me to keep in mind. Lots of great tips in there, and I will shoot for that benchmark of at least FM every weekend in the months leading in - thanks so much

[Dangerscouse]

You're very welcome. Don't hesitate to pester me for more advice or just to let us know how you're getting on. It can be a lonely world when you're doing ultra distances

[Erik A]

interesting looking at the rankings for 100k
19 have done it this season so far and ranged from just under 7 hrs to just under 13 hrs
pretty big range but to be expected given the distance

[Carl Watts]

Very slow for that pace, 17spm tops.

I would probably shoot for a much faster pace, thats just to slow and will result is way to much seat time. 2:30 or 2:40 feels like your doing nothing.

[mattBLiTZ]

Very slow for that pace, 17spm tops.

I would probably shoot for a much faster pace, thats just to slow and will result is way to much seat time. 2:30 or 2:40 feels like your doing nothing.

I think this is a fair point about just adding extra seat time. My thought was to set myself up for success by setting a pace I know I can 100% handle no matter what, even when pain and exhaustion surely starts to become overwhelming. But you're right, this would be adding significant extra time. Perhaps more burden on the fitness demands would alleviate the structural aspect of simply sitting that long to finish the row. Getting a 2:19 pace marathon PR is on my road map toward this first attempt so perhaps I should be more ambitious and shoot ahead for the 9 hour mark instead of the 10 that I was setting myself up for. Food for thought, thanks.

[mattBLiTZ]

You're very welcome. Don't hesitate to pester me for more advice or just to let us know how you're getting on. It can be a lonely world when you're doing ultra distances

What's your personal stance on resting? Do you schedule any strict rest breaks, 1 minute every hour or whatever, just to stretch and shake it out? Or do you save this only for necessity when the moment happens to arrive (bathroom break for example) and just stay on it until the finish otherwise? Pacing-wise, do you pick a speed and laser in on it for the entire time, or is there any benefit to speeding up over time / mixing in slower periods of time on purpose to give you an "active rest" (I've mostly heard of this pacing style mostly by necessity from ultra distance runners who encounter different patches of terrain on their runs, obviously not a factor for us here, but wondering if there's any mental benefit of having scheduled "walks" before we start "running" again, so to speak)

You're right that it does seem like a fairly lonely world for ultra distances! I'm quite fascinated to learn more from those few who have journeyed down this scary path

[Dangerscouse]

I only stopped when I needed to, as i found getting into a rhythm was important as you manage to zone out and churn out the metres. Having said that if you're mentally struggling it will be better to slow down rather than stop as you really do need to build a strong, almost automatic reaction to uncomfortable situations: without that you won't get anywhere and you will crumble too easily

A flat pace worked best for me, especially as I sort of knew what was sustainable fairly quickly. A HR monitor did help with understanding that 'Goldilocks zone'. Doing a 60 mins session with a HR monitor and having a relatively stable result was a good sign. It can be affected by heat, thirst, stress etc so it's not always 100% reliable but it does definitely help.

I also found an occasional sports massage and a foam roller were essential as my mid inner back got very tight after a lot of rowing so I had to stop and quickly stretch

[Carl Watts]

I wouldn't stop unless you have to either, it just kills your average pace. I remember having to get off the rower for just a minute during a FM to answer the front door when a courier arrived, must have only been off the rower a minute and spent the next hour trying to make up the time lost to finally catch up the guy I was rowing with online.

[mattBLiTZ]

Noted

How about the nutrition side of things? Specifically curious about what you'd consume during a 12 hour (though I don't plan on doing that myself) simply because that length of time crosses pretty much an entire day's worth of normal feeding. Are liquid calories from sports drinks mixed with water + quick things like the Gu packets enough to sustain such a long effort, or does real food come into play at some point to curb the sheer hunger itself that surely must be building past the 6-7 hour mark?

On that note, any PRE-row meals for an ultra attempt, that morning-of?

[Dangerscouse]

For the 12 hour challenge i wasn't hungry at all, but I knew I had to have something. I think adrenaline is just taking the edge of your appetite.

All I really had was a few bananas, some nuts (salted cashews were my favourite), diluted OJ (50/50) with a pinch of salt and a tablespoon of sugar (glucose is absorbed quicker than fructose).

I really liked Tailwind energy powders. They have been made by a triathlete and they worked wonders. Be careful with energy powders/ gels as some of them can upset your stomach (I had stomach ache for a couple of hours once).

If you search for sweat loss calculator, and you weigh yourself before and after a long session you can figure out how much liquid you to be drinking, as too much can be just as detrimental as not enough.

A big bowl of porridge and fruit was perfect for a pre-show breakfast. Caffeine tablets could be better than coffee, if you want them, as you know how much caffeine you're having and it will stop you needing the toilet quite as much.

I also used a cut up yoga mat in a pillow case to sit on, but I waited until it got really uncomfortable before I usee it. Luckily that is about two hours for me. Don't use it to start with as it loses its relief.

[Anth_F]

I remember having to get off the rower for just a minute during a FM to answer the front door when a courier arrived, must have only been off the rower a minute and spent the next hour trying to make up the time lost to finally catch up the guy I was rowing with online.

It's sh!t when that happens.

The plan was a 7400m 30min and was going along fine... 26mins in i had to get off to sign for a parcel. No chance of making that ground back up and was only off for about 40 seconds. But in erg time thats about an hour

[winniewinser]

Need a do not disturb sign

[mattBLiTZ]

I also used a cut up yoga mat in a pillow case to sit on, but I waited until it got really uncomfortable before I usee it. Luckily that is about two hours for me. Don't use it to start with as it loses its relief.

Very interesting idea!