4x1k Question?

[old] hepting · Post by **[old] hepting** » January 8th, 2005, 10:53 am

Ok my frustration is increasing and I am curious about other people's experience. My current best 2k pace is about 1:44.8 (just under a 7min 2k). I was under the impression that in theory I should be able to do a 4X1k at or below my 2k pace - but of all the workouts I have done (intervals and steady state) this one consistently kicks my butt. Last night I gave it a shot with Mark Payton and did the four 1k's at the following paces: ~1:44, 1:45, 1:46, 1:47!... and was really hurting at the end of each piece. For reference we set up for an 8k piece, and row one hard 1k, then an easy 1k (at about a 2:35) followed by the next hard 1k etc... (X4) When you do 1k intervals are you able to keep ahead of your 2k race pace? If so any suggestions on further training to help overcome what appears to be a big weakness. Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated! -Dyson

[old] Pete Marston · Post by **[old] Pete Marston** » January 8th, 2005, 12:18 pm

4 x 1k at 2k pace is a very tough target, and to be honest I don't think anyone can actually achieve their true 2k pace. I've done a 4 x 1k before at my 2k pb pace, but that's the point where I then know I can smash my 2k best. 2k + 1 (1 sec slower than 2k pace) is probably a better target. It's up to you how you set up the session, the way you do it is fine, personally I set it up as 1k with 5mins rest. Doing it with a constrained pace between the fast reps I believe makes it harder. But as long as you're consitent you can measure improvement. It's no good for you physcially or mentally to be "failing" on interval sessions though, and the only reason you're doing that is because you're not pacing it properly. Look in your training log at that last time you did the session and average the pace of the 4 reps. Say that was 1:46.0, do the first 3 reps keeping the average on 1:46.0, no faster, no slower. Then you can go faster on the last rep. This way you should never fail the session, either by not finishing, or by having to slow on later reps. Pete

[old] Sir Pirate · Post by **[old] Sir Pirate** » January 8th, 2005, 12:27 pm

Have to agree with Pete on all that he has said. I like 1K intervals but would not be brave enough to attempt 4x1K at 2K pace, I think 3 at 2K pace with that rest is just about doable for me. 4x2K+1 is still a tough session tough. Sir Pirate

[old] MarkPayton · Post by **[old] MarkPayton** » January 8th, 2005, 4:33 pm

Pete's advice is spot on. I can definitely say from last night's experience that going out too fast (race pace -3) in the first interval will pretty much GUARANTEE you will be flogged in all subsequent intervals. Gotta go conservative in the first couple intervals at least. This is an incredibly punishing workout - pacing is key. In some ways, I think that's why this is such good mental as well as physical prep for the 2k race. But oh man, it hurts!

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 8th, 2005, 6:24 pm

I think your rest interval is way too short, to be doing 4x 1k at 2k pace. When I did these a couple of years ago, it took me an hour to do 4 of them, with 15 minute starts and an easy 1k between each. I'd take a couple minutes rest, row a *very* easy 1k, another couple minutes rest, then repeat. These were usually at 2k pace +1 or 2, and only one time did I manage 2k -1. So I would take a longer rest, if you're planning to aim for a 2k pace.

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » January 8th, 2005, 9:13 pm

I think it could be done, but you really have to have some good control of your pace and be in good AT shape. You wanted to do your 2k pace so make sure you stick it. I noticed your first one you did at 2k almost -1. When you approach a peice like that you have to stick the number you want. Take it easy where you are supposed to and buckle down on the place you are supposed to. Don't get too down on yourself though, its not easy to hit such a hard goal on the first time through a workout. If you fall, make it a goal to stay as close as you can next time, or adjust and say "well I couldn't get 2k pace, so next time I'll try to get 2k+.3 for each". The importnat thing is that you learn and set new goals for the next time you row that piece. Basically you have to practice at alot of that interval stuff to be good at it. It may seem somewhat useless to practice to be good at an interval workout, but it teaches you a lot about pacing yourself and gets you comofrtable with moving at your 2k pace.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 9th, 2005, 12:30 am

Looking at your time I would set a rest period of 3:30 and look to hold 1:45 pace. If you cant do this go slower next time but do not increase your rest, When you can comfortably get your four intervals at 1:45 pace drop your rest periods down to maybe 3:15, then work your way down to 3:00 minute rests. When you are comfortable with that rest period, look to pick up your pace but dont increase the rest, stick with the 3:00 then repeat the process. As you get fitter and stronger and the rests get shorter you will find that 1:45 has become a valid 5k pace and your 2k pace is now down the 1:40 area. Stop re-assess and start again. With the exception of totally anerobic intervals, say 10 - 20 sec efforts I think your goal should be to reduce the rest interval, as you dont want your body to be always looking to stop. These times should also be achieved at a steady pace with no sprint start or finish. If you want any reading material to support this position drop me an e-mail regds George

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 9th, 2005, 3:35 am

I agree with George about keeping the rests short --IF-- you have an abundance of speed. Speedsters are not doing the 2k as close to top speed, so can afford to and should have shorter rests in between. For those who are more on the endurance side, who do the 2k at much closer to top speed, then it is very important to have plenty of rest time in between. A good measure is probably, "can you do the 4x 1k at your 2k pace". If you can, then the rests are long enough. If you can't, then the rests should be longer.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 9th, 2005, 4:13 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> think it could be done, but you really have to have some good control of your pace and be in good AT shape </td></tr></table> Perhaps this is off the point, but this is the crux of the issue for me. Because 8 x 500m and 4 x 1K come so close to reproducing the experience of doing a 2K trial and, in the doing, predict so well how you can do a 2K trial, many rowers seem to think that they will get better at the 2K if they do a lot of 8 x 500m and 4 x 1K workouts. IMHO, this is wildly misguided. As kudos says above, I think that 4 x 1K workouts (or 2K trials for that matter) are only productive for brief periods when you are fully ready to race, and even when done well, don't really do much to improve your racing. They just get you used to feeling the pain! Substantial improvement in the 2K, I think, only comes from the stages of training that precede TR and AN work: UT2, UT1, and AT rowing. UT2 rowing builds up a strong stroke. It makes it so that you can go faster and more efficiently for longer and longer distances without even breathing hard. UT1 rowing pushes back your anaerobic threshold. It makes it so that you can go very fast indeed without getting in an oxygen debt. Then AT rowing gets you used to rowing for extended periods in an oxygen debt so that you know how to cope with the stress psychologically, physically, and technically. Honestly, I have never done a 4 x 1K workout, and nonetheless, I broke the 50s lwt WR three times. How? Work hard on your UT2, UT1, and AT rowing. My advice: If you want to get better at the 2K, forget 4 x 1K entirely and do hard hour or HM rows at your UT1 rate and pace. If you want to row a little faster (AN), do 4 x 2-3K or do 5Ks. And always, always, spend most of your time trying to get as much easy, efficient power into your stroke as you can (by doing a lot of UT2 rowing). ranger

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 9th, 2005, 4:29 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jan 9 2005, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> For those who are more on the endurance side, who do the 2k at much closer to top speed, then it is very important to have plenty of rest time in between.  </td></tr></table> John with all due respect I have to disagree with you completely on this, as your suggestion defeats the reason for doing intervals in the first place. As I said earlier I am happy to supply 'articles' to support my position rather than anyone take my word for it, which is purely an opinion. regds George

[old] hepting · Post by **[old] hepting** » January 9th, 2005, 9:42 am

Well folks - let me start off by saying thank you to everyone for your replies! As always the particiaption and enthusiam of the C2 community is really impressive. I see merit in all the recommendations here... hard to argue with the experience and results of the folks giving it. I am in no way a fitness expert but I really believe a lot of this comes down to what works for you - both mentally and physically. Confidence in being able to perform has a lot to do with final results. In this regards if intervals or long-steady state workouts give you that confidence (both of these meeting the requirement of good old fashion hard work) then I think different programs can work for different individuals. In general my erg goals are very modest, once a year I have a challenge with a good friend to go to erg sprints and beat him... so that gets me off the couch and onto the erg. This summer will also be my first year entering some Master's sculling events in my single, so obviously that represents a new challenge. However at this point my average erg times will not be my limiting factor my technique will be... Thanks again everyone for taking the time to post - Cheers! -Dyson

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 9th, 2005, 2:15 pm

George, I 1/2 expected you to disagree. However, consider you are doing your 2k at your 500m +14. However, I can do 5k at 500m +14, and have probably worked at the 500m much more than you have. I.e., you are far more talented at reaching a top speed than I am. I wouldn't be surprised if you soon got down to 1:20-1:22 or so. Blazing. There is no way that I could reach 4x 1k at 2k pace with a short rest period in between. Conversely, I can do a 5k at very close to that speed with NO rest in between. So for me to reach 2k pace for this workout, there needs to be a long/er period of rest and recovery in between then. Otherwise, as you have said, it would defeat the reason for doing intervals in the first place.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 9th, 2005, 3:52 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jan 10 2005, 07:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So for me to reach 2k pace for this workout, there needs to be a long/er period of rest and recovery in between then. Otherwise, as you have said, it would defeat the reason for doing intervals in the first place. </td></tr></table> Hi John, and no was not diasagreeing with you on purpose in fact we are on the same wavelength I was thinking about this further last night and went and did some more reading on the matter and have a couple of other comments. Firstly there is no reason to be doing this session and further out than 4 -6 weeks before a competition in my opinion. Outside of that it adds little value to anything except maybe some mental stimulation. Secondly I dont think using a previous 2k PB is necessarily the best way to go about setting the pace, but it can be a guide. Best guess would be above 90% VO2max (90%+ HRR). Then pick a rest period for this of approximately 1:1 and do the session. If you are dying on the last interval then drop the pace not increase the rest till you can do the session, then look to decrease the rest period till it is virtually a steady state piece. Thirdly, there is some argument that intervals should not be a fixed number, a minimum yes but that they should continue till unable to complete that last one - I think there is merit in this if we are seeking to create an overload situtation and hence compensation. regds George

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 9th, 2005, 5:08 pm

George, My feeling is also that the 4x 1k is not all that great of a workout for the 2k, at least it isn't for me. It's more of a "test" vs preparation. Before my last two 2k PB's I did workouts of 19x 1:00 with 1:00 rest, and 7x 2:30 with 2:30 rests, respectively. The second one worked better though also more difficult. Next time I'm going to a session of 10x 2:00 with 2:00 rests, but keeping them at 2k pace and not overdoing them. I think 2k pace is fast enough. And not exceeding 85-90% of HRR. EE does a session of 3) 10x :45/:15 which is tough. I've managed to do this at 1:46 pace but think that was pushing way too hard and I certainly didn't end up doing the 2k at that pace. So next time I'm keeping it right at goal pace and no faster.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 9th, 2005, 5:27 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jan 10 2005, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Next time I'm going to a session of 10x 2:00 with 2:00 rests, but keeping them at 2k pace and not overdoing them.  </td></tr></table> John, I think this is a great session, 2 with 2 and 3 with 3 (harder) are according to some data I have optimum duration intervals for improving Vo2 max and raising AT - regds George ps For a 2k I think the only thing shorter than this would be in the last couple of weeks a few 'power' intervals of 20sec to 30sec max to simualte starts and finishes.

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