Importance Of High Rate For Best Times

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 31st, 2004, 10:06 pm

Rogus never thought you were implying I was dogging it , just struggling to imagine that sensation of effort in the legs. Do you only feel it once you get to a certain effort or all the time .... it is the same as working on fast feet lol, I do pick up the wheel quite early but any increase in speed 'feels' like it comes form the upper body

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » June 1st, 2004, 11:01 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Tks for your comments Cran, as my signature says I am not a lightweight and can comfortably hold a sub 1:50 pace at 20 / 22 spm so I guess I will just have to work harder. Can I ask your background and on what you base your assertions. </td></tr></table> Didn't notice your sig when I posted Maybe legs on fire wasn't a good description for everyone. I don't do weights, but when I did the feeling in my legs at the end of a set of leg extensions or squats, was somewhat similar to the feeling in my legs at the end of a flat out erg... i.e. knackered. It feels to me like a burning. I don't generally feel sick from lactate after a 2k (I have done after a 500m though), but the legs are definately shot at the end. My background is fairly random. I used to do a lot of cycling and weights when I was at college, but turned into a big fat bloater when I got married. Managed to get all that sorted and get down to lightweight from loads of cardio training, and have been using the erg as my main exercise for last 4 years, and also do water rowing and now cycling again. Ive done some personal research on Sports physiology and nutrition but have no qualifications, other than a basic instructor course, but I do do some random erg and rowing coaching from time to time when I get asked. Like I said in my original post I don't claim to know the answers, only guessing based on what has worked for me and what I have read (here and in books etc). I have tended to rate high to take advantage of aerobic fitness, but last year I started training at lower spm and was getting good results until I got injured. So I base my assumptions on experience over the last 4 years and the gains I was making last year, and also on the fact that the body has two main systems that get used in the 2K (if we ignore the initial ATP), anaerobic and aerobic, in a 500m you can be good with little aerobic fitness, but in a 2k you need both. If you can use both systems to their full potential in a race I think this 'should' be better than using up just one whilst not really taxing the other. So I guess what I was saying is if you are not exhausting one of the systems, try to work it harder. You will keep making gains working your strengths for a while, but there comes a point where you need to work on your weaknesses to get further. So there is no reason why you won't get faster without working on legs, but I'd guess you will make bigger gains long term if you do... Hope that makes sense.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 1st, 2004, 2:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the fact that the body has two main systems that get used in the 2K (if we ignore the initial ATP), anaerobic and aerobic, in a 500m you can be good with little aerobic fitness, but in a 2k you need both. If you can use both systems to their full potential in a race I think this 'should' be better than using up just one whilst not really taxing the other. So I guess what I was saying is if you are not exhausting one of the systems, try to work it harder.  </td></tr></table> Good advice but isn't one's top speed, whatever system that chooses to be called, more of a determinant than the anerobic system. O2 debt can get up to around 18 to 19 liters and that's it. No matter how much training it's not going to go any higher than that. However one's basic speed can improve, thus the rower can go faster with the SAME anaerobic limit, and more speed. So, really, aren't the two systems to work on, the top speed system and the aerobic, then just making sure the anaerobic system is honed in between them for races etc. For example, I doubt that George or most others can go significantly more into O2 debt than I can, however George is far faster than me in a sprint, the #1 determinant of him being far faster in the 2k -- not the anaerobic system, which is going to be relatively the same.

[old] Fr. Ray · Post by **[old] Fr. Ray** » June 1st, 2004, 3:05 pm

I used to do the 2k at about 33 SPM, until my cousin cleaned my clock by about 30 seconds at a rate of 28 SPM. That brought me to the drawing board, and I slowly discovered how he did it. at 33 SPM, I was using my arms and legs, but not abusing them. What I was doing for 2k, I could do for 10k. Same rate and time, so I noticed that I had to be doing something wrong. By pushing harder out with my legs and arms, and slowly coming back in, I could maintain my breathing, while going from 2:00/500m, to 1:54/500. All it took was harder strokes at a slower pace. My 2k time went from 7:57 to 7:34 in two weeks. I'm still working on what is my best SPM with exertion as well... cause they both go hand in hand. I've had both legs and lungs on fire after 2k, not to mention my arms about to fall off.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 1st, 2004, 4:13 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Cran @ Jun 2 2004, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> If you can use both systems to their full potential in a race I think this 'should' be better than using up just one whilst not really taxing the other. So I guess what I was saying is if you are not exhausting one of the systems, try to work it harder. You will keep making gains working your strengths for a while, but there comes a point where you need to work on your weaknesses to get further. So there is no reason why you won't get faster without working on legs, but I'd guess you will make bigger gains long term if you do... Hope that makes sense.  </td></tr></table> Absolute sense Cran and I concur completely ! ps there was no query of your credentials in my question just keen to know your back ground so I could ply you with questions

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 1st, 2004, 4:39 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (GeorgeD @ May 31 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Do you only feel it once you get to a certain effort or all the time .... it is the same as working on fast feet lol, I do pick up the wheel quite early but any increase in speed 'feels' like it comes form the upper body  </td></tr></table> I only feel it when I have pushed to a certain level. As the body becomes trained it learns to work more efficiently and it's gets harder and harder to get to the point where you feel "the burn." This of course, is good and the purpose of our training, but it does mean you have to push yourself harder/faster to reach the point of muscle exhaustion. Do you have a PM3? If so, it would be interesting to observe your force curve. I have found periodically checking my force curve ensures I use my legs, back, arms in an efficient balance. My force curve is very flat with no peak. According to those who know a lot more than I do about the technical aspects of force curves, this indicates a pretty efficient stroke. For some athletes, you can watch the force curve peak at the point whenever their dominant body part is applied whether it be legs, arms, or back. My son's force curve has a distinct peak early in the force curve coming from his legs. He's working on building upper body strength. An upper body erger would peak towards the end when the arms get involved. I think Ranger's old stroke was back heavy and might have a peak when his back opened up. It some cases, the force curve has distinct spikes when certain body parts are used. You can "see" the point where the back or arms are all of sudden "popped." Not a very smooth stroke, which on the erg is less of a problem than in a boat. Still this lack of smoothness can be fatiguing on the erg.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » June 1st, 2004, 5:18 pm

No the ergs at gym does not allow me to see a force curve ...... do notice that the erg is sitting in a puddle of sweat by the time I am finished ... does that count

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » June 1st, 2004, 5:19 pm

I know that I can never seem to get the rating up during pieces on an erg where I would get it on the water. when I row on the water ( in fours) I race at a 34/35 sprinting to a 39/42, but on an erg, my rating never seems to go above a 30/32. Why is this? It seems as though I should be used to going at a faster rating, but it never seems to work out for me.

[old] Karl1234 · Post by **[old] Karl1234** » June 30th, 2004, 5:12 pm

Eurofoot, I think it has something to do with the fact that the erg is stationary, while the boat will move underneath you as you recover. Having spent 2 minutes on the slides, I'd say they are very similiar to the boat. I think you can pull a much higher rate in a boat as on a stationary erg. The recovery on the boat is quicker because as you pull with your feet, you are pulling the boat forward, as opposed to pulling an imovable object. That's a pretty lame explanation, but you probably get the picture. You could draw some vector diagrams, if you're bored.

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » June 30th, 2004, 7:32 pm

When I was much younger, I routinely produced the burning sensation in my smaller muscles by lifting weights. But I can't recall ever producing the same sensation by rowing. At the end of races and time trials, at distances from 500m to marathon, my legs and body are knackered. I have trouble standing up. But, never a burn in the leg muscles. I am 210 pounds, so I am not a lightweight. My times (6:22 2K, 2:34:09 marthon) are fairly fast for someone in their late 40s, so I find it hard to believe that I am not pushing myself. What I feel is my limiting factor is my lungs. They hurt for hours or even days after hard efforts. But, most people think that I have very good endurance. Shouldn't my legs be burning instead of my lungs if I have good endurance? Confused. Paul Flack

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 1st, 2004, 5:53 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Another issue is that I row at about 135DF and even at a low spm (say 20/22) there is little sensation of the resistance to leg drive .... I feel the force required to accelerate the wheel in the arms/back (which are straight) when I begin the drive but nothing to much in the legs (nothing you would feel as when you do squats). </td></tr></table> George-- If you feel the force required to accelerate the wheel in your arms/back (and not in your legs), you are probably pulling too early with your arms and back at the catch. Your timing is off; you are delaying your legs. To check this (and correct this), you shouldn't up the drag in training. Just the opposite. You should put the drag all the way down and practice the timing in your stroke. In my experience, the higher the drag, the more resistance you carry in your upper body relative to your legs. Therefore, low drag encourages faster and faster legs. What you want to practice is getting full suspension on the handle before the initiation of the back (and finish with the arms). Doing this strapless at low rates also helps. Do you drive off the balls of your feet at the catch? Is your chest flat against your thighs (with your knees in your armpits)? If not, you may be neglecting the initiation of your stroke, which is delivered with the legs. Practicing faster legs (strapless at low drag) doesn't mean that you have to race strapless at low drag. Once you get the hang of the timing, you can strap in and up the drag to whatever gives you the best result. Good timing will enhance this result, though, so it is in your interest to work on these things. Note: while good timing certainly enhances perforance on the erg, it is entirely possible to erg with bad timing, carrying the load with your upper body. I don't know about you, but I can row at race pace without my legs at all (i.e., with arms and back only, with my legs flat on the slide). The best test to see if you have good timing would be to climb in a 1x and see what happens. If you have bad timing and are just pulling with your upper body you will fall right out. In a single, the leg drive is delivered with a low center of gravity close to the water line. This gets the boat up to speed and therefore gives it the stability needed to deliver the rest of the stroke, which is done with a much higher center of gravity. On the erg, you don't need this stability in order to use your back and arms and therefore bad timing is not as much of a problem. Best, ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 1st, 2004, 6:08 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I think Ranger's old stroke was back heavy and might have a peak when his back opened up. </td></tr></table> Rogus-- Exactly. My back is by far my strongest body part. As a result, my old stroke had wretched timing. I rowed almost entirely with my back, with my legs as just a kind of stabilizing helper and with very little arms at all. It is taking quite a while to unlearn this bad timing and imbalanced use of body parts. I have been working on these things for almost two years now. I continue to make progress. By working on better timing last spring and summer, I took two seconds off my 50s lwt world record last fall. This is encouraging, and I didn't work at these things nearly as hard last year as I have been doing this spring and summer. This year, rowing regularly on the water (in a 1x) has also helped. I bought a Peinert26 last August. We'll see what happens when I strap in and up the drag this fall. I am hoping that I might be able to get 2-4 seconds. Age might become a serious problem pretty soon, but I don't know when. I will be 54 next year. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 4th, 2004, 12:16 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What I feel is my limiting factor is my lungs. They hurt for hours or even days after hard efforts. But, most people think that I have very good endurance. Shouldn't my legs be burning instead of my lungs if I have good endurance?  </td></tr></table> Paul-- I think I have mentioned this before, but if you get bad lung burn from a 2K, you might benefit from more slow spm rowing at high power. As I remember, you do a 2K at over 13 SPI. If you rowed some extended distances at 13 SPI (in the off season) and then, say, 15 SPI in the 8 weeks or so before you race, this might help your lung burn in the 2K. Rowing at 15 SPI would be rowing with _very_ high power, relative to your 2K pace, but so it goes. It would be equivalent to taking a 1:31 target pace for Wolverine Plan level 4 rowing, 1:50 at 18 spm (and the like). If you row a 10K at 1:45 and 30 spm (or whatever), you row at about 10 SPI. This might not prepare you properly for the extended use of power (13 SPI) you use in the 2K, so the 2K might come as a cardio shock. Of course, the other solution is to do the 2K with a higher rate and lighter stroke, which is easier on your lungs. ranger

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » July 4th, 2004, 11:39 pm

Ok, forgive the question, but I have heard a lot of reference to this "wolverine plan." Is this a training program? If so, could someone put up a bit of reference on it - it sounds interesting.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 11th, 2005, 8:28 pm

My legs never burn either, and my breathing is virtually "always" the limiting factor. A few years ago, I was doing a 60 mile bicycle ride with a group, that had a 9 mile hill climb in the middle. Three of us pulled away from the others on the hill, which kept getting steeper, the last 2 miles at 15% grade or so. The other two were a fairly good rider in his 40's, and his son who was a top junior rider. His son fell back about a mile from the top. With 1/2 mile to go, I was sitting and standing and I noticed my breathing was like a steam engine. The other fellow was sitting all the way and didn't seem to be breathing much at all. I mentioned this to him and he said his legs were thrashed. Then he fell back and I kept going on to the top. This same guy could have thrashed me on the flat, but I had no problem putting distance on him in the hills. The same as on the bike, I think someone who a less responsive aerobic system, compared to their strength, is going to feel it more in their legs, more or less regardless, within reason, of the type of training they are doing. However long term endurance and/or stamina training can turn that around.

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