Importance Of High Rate For Best Times

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » May 25th, 2004, 2:20 am

Any comments or experiences or thoughts on this would be interesting. When I do submax 10k workouts I start at 26 spm. When I get to 5k I increase with 2 spm and the last k is at 30spm. I find that I am the most tired after 5k. When I do 5k I find the same thing, starting at 28spm and switching to 30spm after 2.5k makes me feel lighter after 5k then after 2.5k. During these workouts I also do the latter halfs at about 1-2 pace seconds faster than the first. Every stroke is done with less force though (about one SPI unit less). So, for those of you who have not tried a high rate for middle and long distance trials might have many 10 seconds to improve. This also makes me wonder about what is optimal for 2k. When you get to the extremes of what is possible, a hard stroke is necessary. And if you want to get to the extremes, training for a hard stroke is also necessary, but, is it so bad if you "let yourself go" on race occasions and do a lighter stroke just to get a better time? Also, would one get a better 2k time with a higher rate? I'm convinced on distances of 5k or further, but I have never tried a high rated 2k (never less than SPI 11).

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 25th, 2004, 3:56 am

Carl there is some merit in what you say. Not sure about changing the rate over a 5 or 10k but I know that I made a mistake in my 2k race at the weekend in my sprint at the end. I upped the rate by a couple and dropped my split a couple but in hindsight if I had reduced my recovery up the slide and really upped my rate over that last 150m (similar to my start) I believe I would have had more success. But a word of caution and that is that one should practise this technique in simulated condidtions to be effective I think, or one could end up trading rate for not much increase in pace. - George

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » May 25th, 2004, 5:08 am

My 2K PB was done at 42 SPM At the moment I am using slower rate, but I have been out for a while and not got back up to fitness yet to see how close I can get to that PB at a lower rating. I really don't know the answer, there's arguments for and against, I think it is good to develop power per stroke in training, but I also think that you need to try and race so that you exhaust both your anerobic and aerobic systems. It's like cycling I guess... some people spin at 100+rpm some like it lower... If you finish with legs on fire but no problem breathing perhaps you can increase the rate, if you finish completely exhausted gasping for breath but your legs feel fine, maybe you should slow down the rate... Also what works for a 7ft heavyweight might not be the same as for a 5ft lightweight. I can imagine trying to rating 40+ at 7ft and 120Kg would be entertaining... And likewise a 5ft lwt rower probably won't benefit from trying to keep down at 24SPM in a race...

[old] c2workout · Post by **[old] c2workout** » May 25th, 2004, 9:20 pm

Carl, I have been working on a program to determine the Optimal 2K SPM. Send me your latest 2K PB, your weight in Kg. and I will let you know what I come up with for your Optimal SPM. You can contact me at c2workout@yahoo.com Cheers Stephen

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 29th, 2004, 2:29 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (c2workout @ May 25 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> You can contact me at c2workout@yahoo.com Cheers Stephen  </td></tr></table> Stephen, Are you affliated with Concept?

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 31st, 2004, 6:29 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Cran @ May 25 2004, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> If you finish with legs on fire but no problem breathing perhaps you can increase the rate, if you finish completely exhausted gasping for breath but your legs feel fine, maybe you should slow down the rate...  </td></tr></table> I have never finished any distance with my legs on fire (500 - 10k) but sure have been gasping for breath. I rate about 32 over 2k and could not go any slower I dont think and achieve the time so what would you suggest on the basis of your comments.

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » May 31st, 2004, 6:54 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have never finished any distance with my legs on fire (500 - 10k) but sure have been gasping for breath </td></tr></table> If your legs are not suffering from lactic acid at the end you probably could have pushed harder (had you trained to do that). I'd guess you need to work on driving harder with the legs. I'd try doing some 30 or 60 minute sessions each week at 22 or 20 SPM and concentrate on building a powerful leg drive. Then when you up the rate for faster sessions and races you should be faster You can probably keep the rating at 32 (as is not that high), and still get a faster split from a more powerful drive. Or maybe it will naturally drop a bit. It may be a technique issue and you are not using the legs enough (without getting someone to watch your technique its hard to say), but in that case doing some lower spm training should help anyway. Pushing harder with the legs at a lower spm isn't going to just instantly work if you try it next session... you'll need to train with a slower spm to develop the power and endurance in the legs. If you row fast splits at low spm it should definately start to burn. If your lightweight then this will probably be a lot less than a heavyweight, but it should still burn. Of course you may still be able to improve your aerobic fitness as well... Hope that helps.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 31st, 2004, 7:11 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Cran @ May 31 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> If your lightweight then this will probably be a lot less than a heavyweight, but it should still burn.  </td></tr></table> Sorry, I just can't help myself. George is definitely pretty close to being a LW.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 31st, 2004, 7:13 pm

Tks for your comments Cran, as my signature says I am not a lightweight and can comfortably hold a sub 1:50 pace at 20 / 22 spm so I guess I will just have to work harder. Can I ask your background and on what you base your assertions.

[old] Nick Rockliff · Post by **[old] Nick Rockliff** » May 31st, 2004, 7:19 pm

Like George, never finished a session with "legs on fire" think big legs help

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 31st, 2004, 7:39 pm

Have to agree with Cran here. It's a technique issue. If your legs aren't burning at the end of your 2K, I think you need to work on making them a stronger part of your stroke. On an all out effort, I can't even stand up afterwards, because my legs are weak and shaking. Whether it's done at a slow SR or just as part of your regular rating, you need to concentrate on a stronger leg push. My guess is you are relying on a strong upper body more than your legs. Maintain the strong upper body, add in the leg strength and you'll see times much, much faster.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 31st, 2004, 7:52 pm

I think there is some confusion here .... I cant stand up either as I am stuffed and yes a bit shaky but there is not that 'burning sensation of a lactic build up. Another issue is that I row at about 135DF and even at a low spm (say 20/22) there is little sensation of the resistance to leg drive .... I feel the force required to accelerate the wheel in the arms/back (which are straight) when I begin the drive but nothing to much in the legs (nothing you would feel as when you do squats). I think the only way to achieve this sensation may be to significantly up the DF so the wheel really slows and then develop a feel for it, then slowly drop the DF over time once I understand the mechanics..... but to be honest loath to do this.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 31st, 2004, 8:09 pm

I didn't mean to imply you weren't putting in a good or even great effort. I think what Cran and I are saying is it sounds like your fatigue is CV related more so than leg muscle fatigue. A fit person can post a really good time for a 2K, even without having learned to use their full leg strength, can feel spent at the end but not have given an all out effort. Actually an all out effort is a very rare occurence. If we gave everything we had, we'd collapse just as we crossed the finish, with legs burning, arms burning, lungs screaming for air. Few of us have the heart, guts or foolishness to push that hard. It's way beyond when the brain says stop or at least slow down you fool. My suggestion and maybe Cran's is, if your legs aren't burning, maybe you want to bring them more powerfully into your stroke. Your arms can make you fast for short distances, because they have a much faster turnover rate than your legs possibly can, but if you want to be as fast as you can over distances greater than a 500, you have to learn to use the powerful leg muscles.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 31st, 2004, 9:25 pm

Rogus, Is this burning sensation in the quads? If so, the action must be extension of the knees. Or do you get the burning in the hamstrings too?

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 31st, 2004, 9:46 pm

John, Mainly the quads, but if it's really getting towards an all out effort, then I feel it in my calves and in my hamstrings to lesser degrees. Most of the leg power comes from pushing which is mainly extending the legs using the quads. I have to admit, this hasn't happened for me for awhile, since I haven't had but one 2K effort where I felt I've even begun to get remotely close to an all out effort for the condition I was then in at the time. This was the second 2K I did. It was actually easier to get closer to the maximum my fitness level would allow when I was less fit. Since then all my PB attempts have been what I would consider strong efforts where my brain gave up before my body did. Once you reach a certain level of fitness, the more one's success is mental rather than physical.

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