New Personal Best! Brag About That New Pb!

[Dangerscouse]

That's very pleasing to hear, thanks! For the short stuff you may be right, but as you never trained for that and your problems with back, hips and knees it's not a fair comparison. For the longer stuff, I would say you're definitely better built than me (+3 inches), your results are several levels above mine. To be honest I think it's too early too estimate my potential, the last 9 months went great, a lot of gains, I learnt a lot, and definitely more to come, but improvements will slow down for sure, I still have newbie gains. I really hope to match and pass your current PBs in the long run

Don't apply too much relevance to dodgy knees, back and hip; it was only stopping me from getting stronger and my lack of rowing progress was purely due to lack of focus and laziness. It didn't affect me on day to day basis.

When your base fitness sharpens up more, you will certainly go faster. My gains have taken quite a while to achieve so it's not like I just jumped on a rower and ripped out a 8k 30 mins session trust me, it happened over a long time and lots of sweat!

No - if you start passing Stu in the longer rows you will be passing me too and you are already with me on some shorter stuff. However, your still a youngster, so I guess it's OK I never really never tested the 100m either - think I did it once at like 15.5 but wasn't a best effort. I never paid attention much to a low pull either but have seen 1:15 when sprinting hard, think that is decent. This whole strength discussion is interesting - back when I was more into lifting I once benched 405 LBs but was stronger in the upper-body despite long arms, I never max bench anymore after a major pec tear but I know I can still go over 300#, but again I am strong in upper body and find leg strength more related to the row. I do weights and CF still but I am not much worried about gaining too much strength as I think at 51 I don't have too much more to gain there and improving fitness has been the biggest factor to me. That said, having some extra power in a nice benefit when I need it.

You're a great example of someone who is obviously really strong and is now making fitness gains too...but don't start getting much better too soon as I need to break out of my mini slump

[MartinSH4321]

Very interesting thread. IMO, I'm a better rower than you at the moment but you have got more potential than me.

I have always had a suspect lower back, which has been mainly due to a chronically tight right hip flexor and dodgy knees from lots of basketball as a kid. The chiropractors never told me that if I loosened my hip flexor it was going to solve most of my issues so I avoided squats and deads etc on their advice. This has changed recently but I'm too far behind to make up for lost time, but luckily I'm not bothered about being mega strong; I'm strong enough for what I want to do, and my weight training has always been patchy over the past 20 years.

I have also always been a bit more impressed with longer distances as I find this is a bit more meritocratic rather than, at least in part, good genetics.

If I had my time all over again I'd do quite a lot of things differently not least actually knowing what results I used to produce. I only started paying any real attention about 10 years ago, before i just jumped on and didn't remember pace or PBs.

I really doubt I could get under 15 secs but I also know I have never had any interest on testing anything under 500m and usually 5k is as low as I instinctively consider testing regularly. Horses for courses.

That's very pleasing to hear, thanks! For the short stuff you may be right, but as you never trained for that and your problems with back, hips and knees it's not a fair comparison. For the longer stuff, I would say you're definitely better built than me (+3 inches), your results are several levels above mine. To be honest I think it's too early too estimate my potential, the last 9 months went great, a lot of gains, I learnt a lot, and definitely more to come, but improvements will slow down for sure, I still have newbie gains. I really hope to match and pass your current PBs in the long run

No - if you start passing Stu in the longer rows you will be passing me too and you are already with me on some shorter stuff. However, your still a youngster, so I guess it's OK I never really never tested the 100m either - think I did it once at like 15.5 but wasn't a best effort. I never paid attention much to a low pull either but have seen 1:15 when sprinting hard, think that is decent. This whole strength discussion is interesting - back when I was more into lifting I once benched 405 LBs but was stronger in the upper-body despite long arms, I never max bench anymore after a major pec tear but I know I can still go over 300#, but again I am strong in upper body and find leg strength more related to the row. I do weights and CF still but I am not much worried about gaining too much strength as I think at 51 I don't have too much more to gain there and improving fitness has been the biggest factor to me. That said, having some extra power in a nice benefit when I need it.

1:15 is of course sufficient for fast 1min and 500m PBs, but I think there is no reason why you should be slower than me as you are stronger and taller, you just didn't need to go faster by now I guess. To be honest I also can't understand why we're so close at the 1min and 500m PBs where your better fitness is relevant too
As the 100m and LP TT are risky for the lower back I would say it's a wise decision not to pay to much attention on them, esp. as you had serious back problems in the past. Myself I want this sub 15, even if it's stupid. When I reach it I propably neither do them anymore (the next milestone - sub14 - would be hubris ), and if I hurt my back while trying schadenfreude/spitefulness is approprite
Did you bench this 400+ at your current bodyweight or have you been much heavier. With your height and long arms that's incredibly strong.

[lindsayh]

I've always been a bit intrigued by the low pull thing and how it affects your rowing and I am pretty sure there is a lot of genetics/luck involved as much as training. I am not a big guy and have never pulled really big weights (although have always done some strong stuff) and had a LP @1:13 when I was 62 and a 500 @1:25 which was pretty competitive at the time. Getting low quickly is the other trick - my 4th stroke was sub1:20. I suspect muscle physiology is a big influence. Sadly it is all a dream now!

[KeithT]

1:15 is of course sufficient for fast 1min and 500m PBs, but I think there is no reason why you should be slower than me as you are stronger and taller, you just didn't need to go faster by now I guess. To be honest I also can't understand why we're so close at the 1min and 500m PBs where your better fitness is relevant too
As the 100m and LP TT are risky for the lower back I would say it's a wise decision not to pay to much attention on them, esp. as you had serious back problems in the past. Myself I want this sub 15, even if it's stupid. When I reach it I propably neither do them anymore (the next milestone - sub14 - would be hubris ), and if I hurt my back while trying schadenfreude/spitefulness is approprite
Did you bench this 400+ at your current bodyweight or have you been much heavier. With your height and long arms that's incredibly strong.

I was quite a bit heavier at the time -about 250 LBs but still was close to the same strength at 225, I was also quite a bit younger late 30s. I lost some of my strength with both age and when I made the change to get fitter. 5 years ago I was at 255# and still strong and that's all I really cared about - being big and strong. I realized I was carrying some extra fat though and decided I wanted to lose some of it. Started doing cardio (on an elliptical) and alternated between cardio and lifting 3 days of each a week. When I first got on the elliptical I would go a few minutes at a slow pace and be completely exhausted. Being an ex-athlete I was shocked by this and didn't realize how bad my fitness was outside of lifting. Decided to lose 30 pounds and get to 225 where I thought I would be "ripped", got there and realized I still wasn't as defined as I wanted and just kept with my plan (which included eating very good). I became really good on the elliptical and could go an hour no problem at a good clip and eventually got down to 205 and was very lean but still carried good muscle. A little while after this (4 years ago) I started checking into CrossFit as it focused on both strength and conditioning - got into it and became good at it and competitive and discovered the ERG. The first time I ever did a test it was 500M and I had no idea what I was doing but pulled like 1:28 and realized I was naturally good at it and it was one of the few things in CF where being taller wasnt a bad thing. Interest in rowing grew from there and became a passion about 2 years ago.

Sorry for the long answer but to your point I was a different person when I did the 405 - I am still pretty strong though and definitely in a whole different place fitness wise. I maintain my weight right around 205-210 and just monitor how lean I am. It's funny, when I first got into CF I thought being strong would be my big advantage but thanks to the fitness I get from the ERG my strongest access is my capacity/endurance.

[MartinSH4321]

I was quite a bit heavier at the time -about 250 LBs but still was close to the same strength at 225, I was also quite a bit younger late 30s. I lost some of my strength with both age and when I made the change to get fitter. 5 years ago I was at 255# and still strong and that's all I really cared about - being big and strong. I realized I was carrying some extra fat though and decided I wanted to lose some of it. Started doing cardio (on an elliptical) and alternated between cardio and lifting 3 days of each a week. When I first got on the elliptical I would go a few minutes at a slow pace and be completely exhausted. Being an ex-athlete I was shocked by this and didn't realize how bad my fitness was outside of lifting. Decided to lose 30 pounds and get to 225 where I thought I would be "ripped", got there and realized I still wasn't as defined as I wanted and just kept with my plan (which included eating very good). I became really good on the elliptical and could go an hour no problem at a good clip and eventually got down to 205 and was very lean but still carried good muscle. A little while after this (4 years ago) I started checking into CrossFit as it focused on both strength and conditioning - got into it and became good at it and competitive and discovered the ERG. The first time I ever did a test it was 500M and I had no idea what I was doing but pulled like 1:28 and realized I was naturally good at it and it was one of the few things in CF where being taller wasnt a bad thing. Interest in rowing grew from there and became a passion about 2 years ago.

Sorry for the long answer but to your point I was a different person when I did the 405 - I am still pretty strong though and definitely in a whole different place fitness wise. I maintain my weight right around 205-210 and just monitor how lean I am. It's funny, when I first got into CF I thought being strong would be my big advantage but thanks to the fitness I get from the ERG my strongest access is my capacity/endurance.

Thank you for this long answer, I really appreciate that you take the time for this. It's really fascinating how similar our vita is regarding training, also how our attitudes changed. I always was strong, even without much training, and strength was most important for me. There were some moments where I realized endurance is important too (hiking with friends for example), but I pushed that aside and told myself like "I'm 60lb heavier than the others, no wonder that hiking is hard for me". I alwas thought being strong is also being fit.
When I started rowing about about 13 months ago it was really disillusioning, a reality check. To see the hard facts on the PM5 wasn't easy. Now I'm very happy that I sticked to erging, this forum played a big part at that.
Your vita is very inspiring and great motivation, I hope to find this compromise between endurance and strength work like you did. My problem is (and people who know me better will confirm that) that I'm a very "binary" person, there's only 1 and 0. I love rowing, so all I wanna do is rowing, and strength training is a big overcoming. By now I arranged an "open house" every monday where some friends and neighbors come and we train together, so no excuses for me not to lift weights

[MartinSH4321]

I've always been a bit intrigued by the low pull thing and how it affects your rowing and I am pretty sure there is a lot of genetics/luck involved as much as training. I am not a big guy and have never pulled really big weights (although have always done some strong stuff) and had a LP @1:13 when I was 62 and a 500 @1:25 which was pretty competitive at the time. Getting low quickly is the other trick - my 4th stroke was sub1:20. I suspect muscle physiology is a big influence. Sadly it is all a dream now!

That's very strong, and doing it at 60+ is really incredible! I just checked the C2 rankings, #1 in 2014 and top 5 2013+2015 for 500m, wow!
@ Getting low quickly: I don't have much comparison, but at my 100m PB my 3nd pull was 1:17, I assume that's good.

[MartinSH4321]

For 1k, try 10 x 250 on min rest at 1k rating. Will give you a good idea. Go by pace and feel, not showing the average. Given your speed and better endurance that should be a good bit better. But its a nasty distance.

I did the 10x250m yesterday and it was much better than expected:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
7:44.8 2,500m 1:32.9 436 1799 31
0:47.5 250m 1:35.0 408 1704 29
0:47.3 250m 1:34.6 413 1722 30
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.1 250m 1:34.2 419 1741 31
0:46.7 250m 1:33.3 430 1778 32
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 31
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 32
0:45.8 250m 1:31.5 455 1867 31
0:43.6 250m 1:27.2 528 2116 34

I started at my current 1k PB pace which was way to slow, when starting faster I guess 1:32 average is possible atm.
I'll give the 1k a try soon, with a sub 3:05 target.

[hjs]

For 1k, try 10 x 250 on min rest at 1k rating. Will give you a good idea. Go by pace and feel, not showing the average. Given your speed and better endurance that should be a good bit better. But its a nasty distance.

I did the 10x250m yesterday and it was much better than expected:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
7:44.8 2,500m 1:32.9 436 1799 31
0:47.5 250m 1:35.0 408 1704 29
0:47.3 250m 1:34.6 413 1722 30
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.1 250m 1:34.2 419 1741 31
0:46.7 250m 1:33.3 430 1778 32
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 31
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 32
0:45.8 250m 1:31.5 455 1867 31
0:43.6 250m 1:27.2 528 2116 34

I started at my current 1k PB pace which was way to slow, when starting faster I guess 1:32 average is possible atm.
I'll give the 1k a try soon, with a sub 3:05 target.

No Surprice Martin, you simply got fitter and did not lose speed, so you must be faster. If you do the 1k, focus on execusion, not pace, you simply don,t know what you can atm.
Don,t start to fast, meaning not far below 1.30, keep the rating modest and the strokes strong. Between 500/700 is the nomans land.. keep the focus here, stay strong, after 700, 2xx left, you got it, increese the rate, embrace the pain last 100 hammer it home. Zero drop off the erg.

[MartinSH4321]

No Surprice Martin, you simply got fitter and did not lose speed, so you must be faster. If you do the 1k, focus on execusion, not pace, you simply don,t know what you can atm.
Don,t start to fast, meaning not far below 1.30, keep the rating modest and the strokes strong. Between 500/700 is the nomans land.. keep the focus here, stay strong, after 700, 2xx left, you got it, increese the rate, embrace the pain last 100 hammer it home. Zero drop off the erg.

embrace the pain - GREAT - I'll remember that
Yeah, the first try will be on the save side, then I'll have a better idea where I am atm. My plan is to execute it like last TT (but faster), a few hard strokes at the start, then cruising speed (1:34) at R30-31 till 300 to go , embrace the pain and see what's left.

[hjs]

No Surprice Martin, you simply got fitter and did not lose speed, so you must be faster. If you do the 1k, focus on execusion, not pace, you simply don,t know what you can atm.
Don,t start to fast, meaning not far below 1.30, keep the rating modest and the strokes strong. Between 500/700 is the nomans land.. keep the focus here, stay strong, after 700, 2xx left, you got it, increese the rate, embrace the pain last 100 hammer it home. Zero drop off the erg.

embrace the pain - GREAT - I'll remember that
Yeah, the first try will be on the save side, then I'll have a better idea where I am atm. My plan is to execute it like last TT (but faster), a few hard strokes at the start, then cruising speed (1:34) at R30-31 till 300 to go , embrace the pain and see what's left.

Heard it yearsss ago, but thats really the right mindset, you know its gonna hurt, but thats ok, its only a short while. 1.34 sounds ok, with the start and finish that should get you around 3.05.

[Dangerscouse]

For 1k, try 10 x 250 on min rest at 1k rating. Will give you a good idea. Go by pace and feel, not showing the average. Given your speed and better endurance that should be a good bit better. But its a nasty distance.

I did the 10x250m yesterday and it was much better than expected:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
7:44.8 2,500m 1:32.9 436 1799 31
0:47.5 250m 1:35.0 408 1704 29
0:47.3 250m 1:34.6 413 1722 30
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.1 250m 1:34.2 419 1741 31
0:46.7 250m 1:33.3 430 1778 32
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 31
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 32
0:45.8 250m 1:31.5 455 1867 31
0:43.6 250m 1:27.2 528 2116 34

I started at my current 1k PB pace which was way to slow, when starting faster I guess 1:32 average is possible atm.
I'll give the 1k a try soon, with a sub 3:05 target.

Great session Martin. That last 250 is very promising

[MartinSH4321]

For 1k, try 10 x 250 on min rest at 1k rating. Will give you a good idea. Go by pace and feel, not showing the average. Given your speed and better endurance that should be a good bit better. But its a nasty distance.

I did the 10x250m yesterday and it was much better than expected:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
7:44.8 2,500m 1:32.9 436 1799 31
0:47.5 250m 1:35.0 408 1704 29
0:47.3 250m 1:34.6 413 1722 30
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.1 250m 1:34.2 419 1741 31
0:46.7 250m 1:33.3 430 1778 32
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 31
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 32
0:45.8 250m 1:31.5 455 1867 31
0:43.6 250m 1:27.2 528 2116 34

I started at my current 1k PB pace which was way to slow, when starting faster I guess 1:32 average is possible atm.
I'll give the 1k a try soon, with a sub 3:05 target.

Great session Martin. That last 250 is very promising

Thank you Stu, I'm really looking forward to this coming TT

[KeithT]

For 1k, try 10 x 250 on min rest at 1k rating. Will give you a good idea. Go by pace and feel, not showing the average. Given your speed and better endurance that should be a good bit better. But its a nasty distance.

I did the 10x250m yesterday and it was much better than expected:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
7:44.8 2,500m 1:32.9 436 1799 31
0:47.5 250m 1:35.0 408 1704 29
0:47.3 250m 1:34.6 413 1722 30
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.0 250m 1:34.0 421 1750 31
0:47.1 250m 1:34.2 419 1741 31
0:46.7 250m 1:33.3 430 1778 32
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 31
0:46.4 250m 1:32.7 438 1807 32
0:45.8 250m 1:31.5 455 1867 31
0:43.6 250m 1:27.2 528 2116 34

I started at my current 1k PB pace which was way to slow, when starting faster I guess 1:32 average is possible atm.
I'll give the 1k a try soon, with a sub 3:05 target.

Good work Martin and nice job with increasing the pace! I don't think I have done the 10x250 - have gone 8x250 but not 10 - think I did the 8x250 a little under 1k pace, anyway, I think you got 3:05 in you. Like Henry said just don't give in when that rush of pain hits you, it will all end soon enough.

[lindsayh]

That's very strong, and doing it at 60+ is really incredible! I just checked the C2 rankings, #1 in 2014 and top 5 2013+2015 for 500m, wow! @ Getting low quickly: I don't have much comparison, but at my 100m PB my 3nd pull was 1:17, I assume that's good.

thanks martin - I mentioned it to make the point that training for sprint success will always help but you can't fight the realities of your physiology. I saw it as kind of a party trick rather than incredible sometimes and would wish I could swap it for a 6:35 2k or a 17' 5k which I reckon is something to really train for but which I could never reach.
getting fast quickly is really important in the 500 - you just don't have enough strokes to overcome a slow start and bring the average down. A sub 1:20 third stroke is a great asset - you still have to be fit though.
I like the idea of embracing pain in a positive way too - I heard a physiotherapist use it when talking about how he manages people (like me) dealing with significant chronic pain from osteoarthritis and attempting to delay surgery. It works the same when preparing for a 100% TT as well.
That is a very nice interval session too. My view is that the 1km is really hard but simple and is the flattest pacing of them all - set a goal, make it a line in the sand and "just" stay under it - if there is anything left in the end then great just go for it.

[thewagster]

New 2km pb by some 3 seconds - two of those 4by 1km intervals with 5 min rest have helped.

Overall v happy and this sneaks me into the 81st percentile for 50-59s.

7:21.3 2,000m 1:50.3 261 1197 26
0:55.3 250m 1:50.6 259 1190 27
0:55.7 500m 1:51.4 253 1171 26
0:55.0 750m 1:50.0 263 1205 26
0:54.7 1,000m 1:49.4 267 1219 27
0:55.1 1,250m 1:50.2 262 1200 26
0:55.5 1,500m 1:51.0 256 1180 26
0:55.2 1,750m 1:50.4 260 1195 26
0:54.7 2,000m 1:49.4 267 1219 27

Fairly happy with the consistency - not much left for a sprint!