Low rate fast pace....how?!

[max_ratcliffe]

After checking the memory of the gym erg on holiday, I have the opposite question: how can you row at such a high rate with such a slow split?! Some crazy pieces recorded on every gym erg I see. Very occasionally I see someone who appears to know what they've doing but seems like a shame given how great it can be.

I know, terrible form, etc etc but it is a bit baffling. Mind you I am sure I would have been guilty of it at one point before I discovered this world of the erg.

I've seen somebody resting their arms on their knees at about 44s/m which takes some doing, but what really took the cake was when I saw an older chap (who looked in decent nick still) get his arms and his legs 180deg out of phase. His upper body form and his leg drive looked reasonable in isolation, but he was recovering his upper body during his drive and pulling with his arms as his legs were bending.

It's almost impossible to do, and of course, a lot of work for a handle that was barely moving.

[Gammmmo]

In terms of single strokes, 240/16 = 15 Watt-minutes per stroke. At rate 35 that would put him faster than 6 minutes.

He has gone sub6. Seems nice enough guy....organises the Devon IR comps held over 5K (among other distances).

[NavigationHazard]

If you want to apply power smoothly at high ratings, you need to learn how to apply it smoothly at low ratings. There's nothing particularly magical about r16 as opposed to r17 as opposed to r18, etc. (There's a reasonable case to be made for doing most low-rate rowing at 20 strokes/minute because it makes it relatively easy to stick to the prescribed rating; there's also a case to be made for avoiding boredom by altering the rating systematically, as in the Wolverine Plan). But whatever your chosen low rate, the keys are 1) a strong, well-timed, well-sequenced drive and 2) slide management on the recovery. The latter is especially important for OTW rowers, who need to keep 'boat check' caused by sharp changes in momentum to a minimum. OTW rowers in multiple-rower boats also have to learn to row at the same rating and drag factor as the other rowers in their boat, and ideally at the same speed coming up the slide on the recovery. If all you're doing is erging by yourself, slide control is less vital but still important. And it's a lot easier to work on it at low ratings than it is if you're speeding back/forth.

Here's a sub-7 2k at 17 strokes/minute I did back in 2009. IIRC for some rowing-club training session or other. Objectively I was probably in 6:10-6:15 shape at the time, although I never actually did a 2k test at that pace (I was 6:29.6 at 24 strokes/minute a few weeks after the 2k in the photo)....

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[Anth_F]

Here's a sub-7 2k at 17 strokes/minute I did back in 2009.

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Thats nice going for r17.

Though being a 6' 6" HW helps

[mdpfirrman]

I'm more in the camp of Why? than how.

I don't see a need to row as low as r16, if that was done over a significant period of time.

Rowers often do not weaken the stroke, so the only way to make it “easy” is lowering the rate. This was relax pace for him. Seen him do r14 stuff even.

Took me years to understand this. Been working at it.

That's pretty incredible Jonathan, not surprising considering your strength, but I can't imagine having that power!

[Cyclingman1]

I have an alternative view about low rates. With all due respect to those who swear by them, I don't find low rates to be necessary. Everything and more can be accomplished at higher rates. First of all, low rate rowing is not "easy." The key piece of information that pertains is Watts/stroke rate. Jonathan speaks of rowing 6:58 at 17 SPM. That is 18 W/stroke. That is virtually impossible for most of us and it can't be easy for him. Furthermore, it most definitely is not SS rowing, which is supposed to fill the majority of rowing meters. Heart rate at 18 W/s would be out of the roof.

Obsessing about low rates ignores the development of rowing fitness. One reason that many elect to or cannot surpass low rates is that they are not fit enough to row at 30+ SPM. And low rate rowing is not going to help that. In addition the myth that rowing at a certain W/stroke at low rate translates into the same W/stroke at considerably higher SPM is just that - a myth. The fitness is not there to sustain the higher rate.

I say the way to develop strength and fitness at higher SPM is by doing all sorts of intervals at faster than race pace and at rates similar to or slightly faster than race SPM. Distances, rest time, # of intervals can be adjusted to favor strength and/or fitness. The W/stroke should be higher than race numbers. On race day or on trials, one dials back the W/stroke and the SPM slightly. The fitness and strength will be there to do that. Dialing down makes a lot more sense than trying to ramp up to what one is not trained for.

Jonathan speaks of smoothness. Again, I say one is smooth at what they are used to. I'm a smooth rower at 30+ SPM because I work at it a lot. I reiterate that I do not do high 30s and on up - that is where one really starts to get ragged and desperate and is not going to be used in racing except for a few world class LW rowers.

As a long time successful duathlete [run,bike,run], before body breakdown finally got me, I used these principles to train. I ran thousands of 400, 800m intervals well under race pace on the track to train for the 10K run leg. Cycling is a different animal. A lot of semi-hard riding with some hard 1-2 mile hill climbs.

[Erik A]

On race day or on trials, one dials back the W/stroke and the SPM slightly. The fitness and strength will be there to do that. Dialing down makes a lot more sense than trying to ramp up to what one is not trained for.

ive always been taught/told and have since passed on to my kids and teams that i have coached to Train hard to play easy
if you are busting your A$% for multiple trainings a week for weeks on end prior to and including sports seasons then the relative short period of "the Game" becomes a lot easier as your fitness is so much higher
i first came across this when i was in the services and it was a pretty common method of training for all the sports teams i was a part of while in the services. it was quite often a bit of a joke when playing non service teams to perform at a slightly higher level than the opposite team until about 3/4 way through the game then put the hammer down for the last quarter. the amount of teams we broke like that was amazing. when my daughter was playing basketball at high school her coach also used that method and while sitting on the sidelines you would hear parents from the other team commenting about the speed that my daughters team played and that they would wear themselves down before the end of the game. never happened.
Train Hard to Play Easy is a worthwhile method of training. at least in my experience

[Dangerscouse]

On race day or on trials, one dials back the W/stroke and the SPM slightly. The fitness and strength will be there to do that. Dialing down makes a lot more sense than trying to ramp up to what one is not trained for.

ive always been taught/told and have since passed on to my kids and teams that i have coached to Train hard to play easy
if you are busting your A$% for multiple trainings a week for weeks on end prior to and including sports seasons then the relative short period of "the Game" becomes a lot easier as your fitness is so much higher
i first came across this when i was in the services and it was a pretty common method of training for all the sports teams i was a part of while in the services. it was quite often a bit of a joke when playing non service teams to perform at a slightly higher level than the opposite team until about 3/4 way through the game then put the hammer down for the last quarter. the amount of teams we broke like that was amazing. when my daughter was playing basketball at high school her coach also used that method and while sitting on the sidelines you would hear parents from the other team commenting about the speed that my daughters team played and that they would wear themselves down before the end of the game. never happened.
Train Hard to Play Easy is a worthwhile method of training. at least in my experience

I agree with Erik. If you can learn to suffer more in training it makes the actual event a lot more bearable. My 12hr challenge was very comfortable in comparison to my training as a good example.

[smh]

1.53 is 240 Watt, and 1 W is 1 Nm/s.

At rate 16 he pulled 16 x L x F x 9.81 / 60 Nm/s where F is the average force in kg and L is the net stroke length in meters.

Taking L as 1 meter, F = 240 x 60 / 16 x 9.81 = 92 kg

So he did it by pulling long strokes, hard, which most likely means he is large, fit and strong, especially if he continued for any length of time.

In terms of single strokes, 240/16 = 15 Watt-minutes per stroke. At rate 35 that would put him faster than 6 minutes.

Your 200W at 18 is a stroke worth 11 Watt-minutes, so you're close.

Great post. I'm going to do these calcs for myself.

[NavigationHazard]

Here's a screenshot from a Feb 2012 video of the German men's eight training for the London Olympics. They appear to be doing a two-hour erg piece at 20 strokes/minute. The rower in the screenshot has averaged 1:51.4 for the first 62 1/2 minutes or so. That is 253 watts (~12.7 watts/stroke). There's no way to be sure, but I would guesstimate the targeted power output over that duration at around 50% of 2k watts. If so, 2k watts are 506 and 2k pace is ~5:53.6. That's actually probably a little slow for an Olympic-level male sweep rower -- I'd expect something more like 5:45 at that point in the games preparation cycle.... I'm confident that at 20 strokes/minute, everyone in that boat at that time was capable of holding my 1:44.5 pace (or better) for at least an hour, at something under 70% of HRR (heart rate reserve). At a rate of 17 strokes/minute they probably could hold the pace/power output for 45 minutes at UT2 heart rates.



Everyone is free to train however s/he wants to. Just because elite rowers do a lot of long-duration low-rate work at relatively high power/stroke values doesn't mean that non-elite rowers should slavishly copy them. If nothing else such workouts are boring as hell and chew up oodles of time. Moreover, IMO if you/we do essay those sorts of workouts, for maximum benefit it's important to balance them in a periodicized training plan that raises ratings/lowers durations as the targeted competition date grows closer. Low-rate stuff is fundamentally foundational; IMO race prep is a whole lot easier when there is a foundation in place. And I would suggest that more often than not, low-rate rowing is an effective way of building it.

Is it the only way to go? No. Hell, I've won maybe more than my share of age-group medals at competitions like Crash-Bs, British and European championships, the first FISA world indoor meet, and at times have held various age-group WRs. And I detest long steady-state erg pieces, over the years preferring to do roughly equivalent volumes as equal work/rest intervals at similar ratings.* To my knowledge, though, I remain pretty much alone in this approach.... Your alternative, alternative method clearly works for you, and I cheerfully recognize the differences and the results.

* And since my diagnosis of type II diabetes back in 2017, I've been physiologically unable to do long, uninterrupted pieces on account of dehydration coupled with diminished blood glycogen. There's a serious danger of hypoglycemic seizures that could potentially kill me.

[max_ratcliffe]

Training for sport and training for athletics is different, isn't it?

For sport, you need to be fit enough to execute your skills without being compromised by fatigue. So, in general, training is tougher than the game. I recall feeling like I was going to see my dinner again a few times in football (soccer) training back in the day, but I never felt like that in a match. I was pretty average, and had to play on the edge of fury the whole time to have any impact even at the very ordinary level I played at. Perhaps that adrenaline kept the exhaustion away?

In athletics, Steven Bradbury aside, no one wins gold by stepping things back a bit, surely.

[hjs]

Training for sport and training for athletics is different, isn't it?

For sport, you need to be fit enough to execute your skills without being compromised by fatigue. So, in general, training is tougher than the game. I recall feeling like I was going to see my dinner again a few times in football (soccer) training back in the day, but I never felt like that in a match. I was pretty average, and had to play on the edge of fury the whole time to have any impact even at the very ordinary level I played at. Perhaps that adrenaline kept the exhaustion away?

In athletics, Steven Bradbury aside, no one wins gold by stepping things back a bit, surely.

Indeed, during games you can,t be very tired, if so you are defenseless. Sports is just about that last bit. Thats why games are, in my view, no real sports.