Do Heavy People Naturally Have Better Times....

[old] gaffano · Post by **[old] gaffano** » January 7th, 2005, 5:20 pm

because of the physics of extra weight pulling on the chain wheel?? My question pertains to heavy individuals who initially pull low 500m with what seems less that intense effort(not factoring in overall long rowing endurance capacity).

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » January 7th, 2005, 5:34 pm

This is the second post today on this subject. I was waiting for the first to generate some fireworks. Maybe my memory is wrong, but this is one of those hot button topics that has been discussed before. I don't see how extra weight, in and of itselt, is an advantage in rowing. There is a clear penalty when rowing in a boat if you are heavier. On the erg, there is no obvious penalty, but you still have to haul that weight up and down the slide. Clearly, some people can carry some extra weight and still be really fast, but I would think they would still be as fast if they lost that extra weight. The erg measures your power output. On average, larger people can generate more power. More muscle can also generate more power for any particular person, and that would make them weigh more. Maybe somebody should strap on some weights and resolve this question for us (maybe this has been done, but I don't remember it being discussed before).

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » January 7th, 2005, 5:44 pm

You might find this useful: <a href='http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/rowing/physics/ ... l#section2' target='_blank'>http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/rowing/physics/ ... > Byron

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » January 7th, 2005, 5:45 pm

michaelb, It's a fact that heavier people are in advantage while erging; in rowing, the extra-strength they might have will only be of use if it is superior to the impact of extra-weight on boat drag. Meanwhile, someone in the uk forum gave me a usefull tool. Have a watch. <a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6608' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... AM

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » January 7th, 2005, 6:05 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (remador @ Jan 7 2005, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> michaelb, It's a fact that heavier people are in advantage while erging; in rowing, the extra-strength they might have will only be of use if it is superior to the impact of extra-weight on boat drag.  </td></tr></table> I don't know, but I don't think so. In this thread, more than others, abide by the disclaimer below. I thought the C2 weight adjusted calculator was intended to let coaches adjust ergs scores to better predict how different athletes would perform in a boat. While heavies are generally faster than lightweights, I was thinking of "weight" as a crude approximation of body size. People who are larger weigh more on average. There are some sports where weight can be an advantage (leverage in football, or weightlifting, or power in boxing), I am just not sure if rowing/erging is one of them. If I decided to "super size" myself, and ate nothing but McDonalds for the next month, but otherwise kept up my training, and I gained 15 lbs of fat in that time, I don't think I would be any faster, even over a sprint like the 500.

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » January 7th, 2005, 6:15 pm

Well, talking about personal experiences, michael, here goes one: In my club, there is a guy that is weaker than me in the weight room; his vo2 max (although "measured" by a cooper test) is smaller than mine; I think I have more muscular endurance than he has (at least, I can do more rep's with a given weight). But: he is 93 kg, while I am 72 - he doesn't give me a chance on the erg, nor to any lightweight in the club. On water, we all beat them. Anyway, I was expecting some sort of "engineering" information here. Anyone out there? AM

[old] phowd · Post by **[old] phowd** » January 7th, 2005, 6:15 pm

I don't see how simply adding mass will be of any help. (Strap 10 kilos on your back next time you erg and see how it feels) Now, if that mass is in the form of muscle, and the muscle is used to provide more power, then there most likely is an impact. The key assumption made at the physics of rowing site Byron linked to is that the rowers are simply scaled up (or down) while maintaining ther same physique. That is very different than saying an extra XX kilos will make you go faster. It won't if it is fat or some other non-power producing tissue. I think. Peter

[old] MarkPayton · Post by **[old] MarkPayton** » January 7th, 2005, 6:16 pm

I know this has been discussed at great length before. But I don't recall anyone discussing whether weight continues to be an advantage over longer pieces. I wonder whether the energy required to continually accelerate and decelerate the extra mass a heavy person has would actually become a DISadvantage over an increasing number of repetitions. Might having less mass to accelerate/decelarate at each catch and finish perhaps prolong the time before onset of muscle fatigue? In other words, if two rowers of equal strength but vastly unequal mass were to row over a longer distance, wouldnt the heavier rower encounter earlier muscle fatigue? Or maybe I'm just trying in vain to justify my own rapid falloff in average pace over the longer distances...

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » January 7th, 2005, 6:16 pm

Not the weight, but the extra muscle mass will help your erg scores. Just try it: hang a backpack with a few kg on your back and erg! I bet you won't go faster and, after some practise, not slower either. Tom

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » January 7th, 2005, 6:25 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (remador @ Jan 7 2005, 10:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> In my club, there is a guy that is weaker than me in the weight room; his vo2 max (although "measured" by a cooper test) is smaller than mine; I think I have more muscular endurance than he has (at least, I can do more rep's with a given weight). But: he is 93 kg, while I am 72 - he doesn't give me a chance on the erg, nor to any lightweight in the club. On water, we all beat them.  </td></tr></table> I think a cooper test is very inaccurate in predicting V02 max, especially when comparing people that differ so much in weight. It seems to me that erging (for instance 5K time trials, but I am no expert) is a rather good test for V02 max. Tom

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » January 7th, 2005, 6:37 pm

I agree, tomhz. Cooper tests are not quite accurate. Nevertheless, take anaerobic power: I have more muscular strength than he has, but cannot do the same scores on the erg (max. output)... there's something here, and is not related to muscular strength!

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » January 7th, 2005, 8:37 pm

most of the reasons why a person with more weight is better on the erg has to do with a couple of physiological associations tied to being heavier. 1) Height- Alot of rowing has to do with your efficiency as a lever, I taller person makes a better lever than a shorter one as well as having a longer stroke than a shorter one. This the reason why most of the very best rowers are over the 6'5 mark. 2) More Muscle- If you can add more muscle and still keep the same BMI you will be able to apply more force with your legs, snap open your core, and pull through faster, given you have the cardio vascular ability to fuel those muscles. This is a very important factor is considering weight 3) Heavier/denser frame- Being heavier and bigger allows your body and joints to handle the stress of all the compressions much better than a smaller person. A much over looked fact. That all being said, who cares, seat races can solve any issues over who is more efficient on the water. You have no choice on the erg, either you are under 165 and you are ranked with one set of people or you are over 165 and you are grouped with another. Just be fast and worry about how to get faster, not, well if I'm this weight and hes that weight blah blah blah. You've already wasted 10 minutes of your life on it. PS: Technique may have something to do with your larger/smaller friend is faster than you as well. This isn't exactly all science, theres a significant portion of art to this madness of a sport

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 7th, 2005, 9:28 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Kudos @ Jan 7 2005, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> This isn't exactly all science, theres a significant portion of art to this madness of a sport  </td></tr></table> The art has science behind it all, though the science is so difficult to completely integrate into a unified model that it's easier to just say something like what you did. Heavier has its advantages and disadvantages. Lighter has its advantages and disadvantages. It pretty much balances out in the end, and trying to adjust performances through mathematical manipulation is pretty silly. Lightweight categories were introduced to allow more medals to be available and increase intrest in a sport that generally is dominated by larger people. All the evidence needed for this is that if a lwt beats a heavy weight it's always due to superior technique, fitness, etc... but if they get beaten, it's because the other athlete was heavier. The point about longer levers sure makes intuitive sense, but think about it further and you wil find that getting force to happen at the end of a longer lever requires more strength. There aren't any lanky power lifters out there doing well, they tend to be a bit on the "compact" scale. This could go on for a very long sdiscussion, but someone else will have to do it.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 7th, 2005, 9:43 pm

More weight results in "faster" times, as more weight can be traded for pace. However lightweights overall get the "better" times, meaning generation of more power and thus faster times per weight. It is generally more difficult for heavier rowers to generate the same power and fitness for their weight, as it is for those who are lighter.

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » January 7th, 2005, 10:32 pm

This is only a personal observation with regard to my results from 2002 compared to 2004. In 2002 i raced in the World Surfboat titles at 192 lb, in 2004 i deliberately raced at 200 lb. My longer distance C2 times for 5000, 6000 and 10000m were better in 2002, however last year my 500, 1000m times were better and my 2000m was .5 sec slower. My PB's now are very difficult to reach as they were mostly done in my 20's and early 30's and at 42 last year i'm only comparing results from ages 40 and 42. GW

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