Rowing & Running Fitness

[hobbit]

First post here since September . That knee pain was a torn meniscus in the knee. Ouch. Fortunately, erging does not aggravate it at all. However running has been out of the question until now. I've been doing physiotherapy for a month or so. Mainly working on foot and hip stability. They were rubbish. Now we're rebuilding my running "style" by upping the cadence and aiming for light foot steps, to reduce the risk of injury.

Sooo, I finally got onto the treadmill in the gym this evening. Five times one min on and one min off. Concentrating on running form. At the end, just to see, I cranked up the speed until I was at 6min/mile (16k/h) and it felt great, even if it was only for a minute. That's fast enough to get me into the top 10 in the UK, if I can keep it up for 10k . We'll see...

[hobbit]

Just a little rant to let off steam... Getting back to running is proving VERY frustrating. I'm working with an excellent PT and my torn knee meniscus is almost a thing of the past (still, 6 months lost). So I slowly increased duration and repetitions on the treadmill from 10 x (1' on/1' off) to 10 x (2' on/1' off), with speed 10-12kmh-1. Everything was going fine.

Then I switched to running outside: 3 x (5' on/ 2'min off) and that was OK too - I was really pleased.Then disaster struck: during the last of
3 x (6' on/ 2'min off), my dodgy right shin got a pull (I stopped immediately) and I've now been hobbling for 4 days .

To make matters worse, I thought that rowing might be OK, but I was clearly pulling strangely to protect the shin and pulled my right trap (probably - I'm not a muscle expert). So now I can't row or run. Or do pullups. I'll probably try biking in the gym to see if that is doable.

All thoughts welcome.

PS No doubt I was running too fast when I hurt myself. I have such a great motor now from all that rowing (should reach 1.5 million meters this season). My heart is at 47bpm at rest. Unfortunately, the transmission chain is not adapted to running, which means that I need to crank up the unfamiliar motion slowly. Not what I'm best at .

[Tenshuu]

Just a little rant to let off steam... Getting back to running is proving VERY frustrating. I'm working with an excellent PT and my torn knee meniscus is almost a thing of the past (still, 6 months lost). So I slowly increased duration and repetitions on the treadmill from 10 x (1' on/1' off) to 10 x (2' on/1' off), with speed 10-12kmh-1. Everything was going fine.

Then I switched to running outside: 3 x (5' on/ 2'min off) and that was OK too - I was really pleased.Then disaster struck: during the last of
3 x (6' on/ 2'min off), my dodgy right shin got a pull (I stopped immediately) and I've now been hobbling for 4 days .

To make matters worse, I thought that rowing might be OK, but I was clearly pulling strangely to protect the shin and pulled my right trap (probably - I'm not a muscle expert). So now I can't row or run. Or do pullups. I'll probably try biking in the gym to see if that is doable.

All thoughts welcome.

PS No doubt I was running too fast when I hurt myself. I have such a great motor now from all that rowing (should reach 1.5 million meters this season). My heart is at 47bpm at rest. Unfortunately, the transmission chain is not adapted to running, which means that I need to crank up the unfamiliar motion slowly. Not what I'm best at .

Question about the torn meniscus, I should probably ask my doctor, but I'm one of those people that goes to the doctor when it's my last option because I'm stubborn.

Does the pain from the meniscus tend to occur during direct pressure and full straightening of the leg?

Off and on I've had flare ups for the past few months in the same knee, where I would go to stretch before getting out of bed in the morning, and that straight-leg lockout was crazy painful on one knee - and occasionally after a lot of kneeling (on my knees instead of on a pad or squatting) throughout the day, there's a little bit of radiating pain and pressure sensitivity.

What kind of rehab have you been doing to improve healing time?
Sometimes it feels like the only rehab is non-use, because flare ups seem to occur frequently, and the straight-leg lock pain never really goes away.

I want to start jogging again now that the weather is cooperating, but I'm afraid the high impact of running on pavement will just make things worse.
Would running in vibrams (toe shoes) with proper posture significantly reduce the impact problems?

[johnlvs2run]

my dodgy right shin got a pull (I stopped immediately) and I've now been hobbling for 4 days .

Use ice water on your shin with a wash cloth, numerous times for short brief periods (30 seconds or so), interspered with gentle walking around, and keep doing this based on your progress until healed. Be consistent, give this plenty of time and don't rush it.

As previously mentioned, rowing is NOT a good preparation for running. The muscles used and the motions are entirely in opposition and different.

[hobbit]

As previously mentioned, rowing is NOT a good preparation for running. The muscles used and the motions are entirely in opposition and different.

I know . I row to get good cardio when it's cold outside & just general cross training- I've got the bug... I always do 10min elliptics as a warm-up, as that is low stress. Also my upper body and core have always been weak, so I've decided to become more of an all round athlete, so I'm varying my training much more than when I was a hard-core runner.

[hobbit]

Does the pain from the meniscus tend to occur during direct pressure and full straightening of the leg?

Off and on I've had flare ups for the past few months in the same knee, where I would go to stretch before getting out of bed in the morning, and that straight-leg lockout was crazy painful on one knee - and occasionally after a lot of kneeling (on my knees instead of on a pad or squatting) throughout the day, there's a little bit of radiating pain and pressure sensitivity.

What kind of rehab have you been doing to improve healing time?
Sometimes it feels like the only rehab is non-use, because flare ups seem to occur frequently, and the straight-leg lock pain never really goes away.

I want to start jogging again now that the weather is cooperating, but I'm afraid the high impact of running on pavement will just make things worse.
Would running in vibrams (toe shoes) with proper posture significantly reduce the impact problems?

1. It doesn't sound like a torn meniscus. The typical sign is that it hurts most during the night, especially when turning over from one side to the other. There was almost no position that I could sleep in without pain killers for a couple of months.

Sounds more like "runner's knee" - chondromalacia (?), which I have had a lot of, but been cured by orthotics.

Obligatory remark that I am not a medical doctor, just a walking encyclopedia of running injuries .

2. The re-hab I've had fits in with your point of view. It has been more about getting to the source of the problem, so I have upped my cadence, reduced overstriding and done a lot of exercises to improve core stability and balance.

3. I'm exploring the minimalist approach too, and I have same worries about running on hard surfaces in zero drop, no cushioning shoes (I've got Merrell Vapor Glove 3's). I'm just going to use them on soft surfaces, to give my foot muscles a workout. I got a book "Your best stride" that I'd recommend. It says to use various different shoes, to avoid the leg muscles getting stuck in a groove.

[Tenshuu]

Does the pain from the meniscus tend to occur during direct pressure and full straightening of the leg?

Off and on I've had flare ups for the past few months in the same knee, where I would go to stretch before getting out of bed in the morning, and that straight-leg lockout was crazy painful on one knee - and occasionally after a lot of kneeling (on my knees instead of on a pad or squatting) throughout the day, there's a little bit of radiating pain and pressure sensitivity.

What kind of rehab have you been doing to improve healing time?
Sometimes it feels like the only rehab is non-use, because flare ups seem to occur frequently, and the straight-leg lock pain never really goes away.

I want to start jogging again now that the weather is cooperating, but I'm afraid the high impact of running on pavement will just make things worse.
Would running in vibrams (toe shoes) with proper posture significantly reduce the impact problems?

1. It doesn't sound like a torn meniscus. The typical sign is that it hurts most during the night, especially when turning over from one side to the other. There was almost no position that I could sleep in without pain killers for a couple of months.

Sounds more like "runner's knee" - chondromalacia (?), which I have had a lot of, but been cured by orthotics.

Obligatory remark that I am not a medical doctor, just a walking encyclopedia of running injuries .

2. The re-hab I've had fits in with your point of view. It has been more about getting to the source of the problem, so I have upped my cadence, reduced overstriding and done a lot of exercises to improve core stability and balance.

3. I'm exploring the minimalist approach too, and I have same worries about running on hard surfaces in zero drop, no cushioning shoes (I've got Merrell Vapor Glove 3's). I'm just going to use them on soft surfaces, to give my foot muscles a workout. I got a book "Your best stride" that I'd recommend. It says to use various different shoes, to avoid the leg muscles getting stuck in a groove.

Runner's knee might fit better, torque on my knee from twisting doesn't tend to cause trouble, it's the straight lockout and physically touching near sensitive area that cause most pain flare ups - generally not noticable when at rest.

Definitely stick to dirt paths or grass with minimalist shoes. I had the worst shin splints ever from doing a 5k on pavement in my vibrams... Trail running is great, I broke a pinky toe on a tree root doing that, but continued my run lmao - only thing you can do with a broken toe like that is splint and don't smash while healing...

Looks like the weather is reverting to snow here again, and I've got some upper respiratory infection I'm trying to get rid of, so I've backed off everything for a couple of days.

[hobbit]

2nd power hike of the year. The first with running shoes, as the snow melts. My increased erging, compared to a year ago, is paying off, as I got a PB on my 800m vertical climb test piece: 52:22, 20s off last year's record. More to come, as I'm not grooved into the movement yet. I use hiking poles, mostly double poling, so it is actually quite similar to erging. I want to get under 48min, which would give me 1,000m of ascent per hour. A nice round figure .

We had a lot of late snow this spring, so I won't be able to do my full 1,300m climb for a few weeks yet. It was great to be up there to see spring arriving under blue skies.

[johnlvs2run]

I use hiking poles, mostly double poling, so it is actually quite similar to erging.
I want to get under 48min, which would give me 1,000m of ascent per hour. A nice round figure .

Nice vertical hiking, Hobbit. You should try a Skierg, one of these days.

[hobbit]

"Ran" the French vertical kilometer championships today. It was a bit of a struggle towards the end - had to pause to catch my breath a couple of times . Still, I managed a new PB of 57:50 for exactly 1,000m of vertical gain, which was nice.

I was disappointed to be 10th out of 18 starters in M60-69. Most of the top guys were trailers who can do good times over 2-4 hour races, so clearly aerobic capacity is key (anyone surprised?).

More (specific) training needed.

[johnlvs2run]

Hobbit, that's awesome. Keep up the great work.

[hobbit]

Hobbit, that's awesome. Keep up the great work.

Thanks for the support! My "fitness journey" is pretty eccentric, compared with most of the folk on this fine forum.

Coming back to your previous post about the Skierg, I did think about it, as I love cross-country skiing, but two things put me off i) the cost and ii) it seems to be even more potentially boring than rowing, as you're staring at a wall. I'd love to try one in a gym, but they are hard to find.

[johnlvs2run]

Coming back to your previous post about the Skierg, I did think about it, as I love cross-country skiing, but two things put me off i) the cost and ii) it seems to be even more potentially boring than rowing, as you're staring at a wall. I'd love to try one in a gym, but they are hard to find.

Hobbit,
I was likewise concerned with the Skierg cost, and didn't have the chance to try one. However, I wasn't getting enough exercise and decided to get one last July. At first I used it with a stand, but the stand was wobbly, took up more space, and being an inch high caused concern about tripping and having having an accident. Attaching the Skierg to a wall solved all of those issues, and I feel is 100 percent better.

Staring at the wall was another concern, but there are less distractions this way which is nice. Most of the time I'm either glancing at the monitor, looking at the floor or behind the erg and spacing out enjoying the exercise. I've thought about attaching a 3x4 foot mirror behind the erg but haven't really felt a need for it. If you get one, be sure to ask for the longest cords that they have.

[hobbit]

I seem to have finally sorted out my glass legs, so I'm able to run every two days without parts of them complaining. I've just been slowly ramping up from 10 x 1min + 1min on the treadmill to 25min continuous outdoors.

Last week I got serious and went to the track to do some intervals. The first time for twenty something years. Today was a repeat: 5 x 1k with 2:30 rest. Average 4:28, so 22:20 for 5k . 3s faster than last week - noob gains. It just feels so great to be able to run (relatively) fast again. The track is funny. It's a fancy all-weather one, but abandoned by athletes, due to its age & decrepitude. It's patched and battered with bits missing, but I don't care. I have it to myself usually.

[hobbit]

That 5 x 1k track session is actually a perfect predictor. Did my first 5k Parkrun for a year today in an acceptable 22:12. Lots more where that came from, I think. Note to myself: do not get overexcited and spoil it all by getting injured.