Ut2!!

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » January 4th, 2005, 10:44 am

Yes, this is a great thread. Thanks to Ranger for starting it and to George, Mel, and all the other experts for adding to it. I can see why the Interactive 2K Training Programme (programme--don't you love the quaint spelling? Not only do they all drive on the wrong side of the road, but also they don't know how to spell over there. It's a good thing our ancestors had the good sense to flee. Where was I?) I can see why it's called interactive. I keep revising my training paces downward as I progress. And I also see that Ranger was right. I should have turned blue in the face and puked. I didn't do my test 2K hard enough. I'm not sure that it's helping to keep my heart rate down during the end of a longer session, but I've started using a fan aimed at me. At least I feel a little cooler. I had the usual balancing act with about 15 minutes to go today during a 45' UT2, trying to stay at the specified rates. Byron

[old] Steve_R · Post by **[old] Steve_R** » January 4th, 2005, 11:23 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Mark Keating @ Jan 3 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What does this mean from: 1. a physiological standpoint. Does a "fit" heart respond quicker or slower to a consistent load such as this? 2. a training standpoint. Should I be starting with a pace, say 10% quicker than my target rate, so that my heart rate reaches the appropriate range earlier in the session, then settling back to my target pace?  </td></tr></table> This draws attention to something I had somewhat neglected in the beginning from the training program: Warm up and Cool down. There are specified warm up times (to get into your target heart rate) and cool down (to ease the heart down and to keep from building up waste products and blood in the muscles.) I would not recommend working harder in the beginning just to get your heart up to rate faster. Here are the warm up and cool down times from the C2 plan: UT2: 5-8 min UT1: 8-10 min AT: 10-12 min TR: 12-15 min AN: 15-20 min I have used warm up and cool down from a heart rate perspective, and not by time. It usually takes me about 3 minutes for warm up and 5 minutes for cool down. Maybe I have not been spending enough time here so suggestions from others are welcome. As far as whether a more fit heart will get into range faster, I don't know. Anybody else have thoughts? Steve

[old] Mel Harbour · Post by **[old] Mel Harbour** » January 4th, 2005, 12:27 pm

Nope, don't try and go harder initially. Work out your pace for the training band, then hold the right speed. For a shortish piece, you're going to struggle to use heart rates very effectively for the reasons you describe. Mel

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 4th, 2005, 12:31 pm

This occurred to me today. If you use the paces in the C2 manual, ideally, UT2 is a pace that you can row forever at, or at least a good long while (e.g., 50K-100K?) while UT1 is HM pace. These parallels follow pretty closely the "double the d, add 3" formula. According to this formula, 64K pace is 2K + 15; HM pace is 2K + 10. It seems that a few of the best rowers (e.g., close to home, Rob Slocum in the 50s hwt division) have indeed met or exceeded these distance targets. As I remember, Slocum, who rows a 2K around 6:32 (1:38), has rowed 100K in 6:32 (1:56 pace, including rests, so certainly in and around 1:53 in the rowing) and a marathon in 2:32 (1:48 pace). ranger

[old] ninja · Post by **[old] ninja** » January 4th, 2005, 2:58 pm

hi guys, Seriously lads I think we are getting a bit too technical with these ut2's and restricted rates. As far as I am concerned it all boils down to the old saying 'no pain,no gain'. The fact is you can fiddle around with your heart rates and your spms all you like but it dosen't mean you are acturally getting any better. Sure it might make you feel better but at the end of the day if you don't push your self extreamly hard at least every other session you are going nowhere. Now in all fairness guys nobody needs a heart rate moniter to feel the pain of a good 10 or 6k erg. Anto

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 4th, 2005, 3:23 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ninja @ Jan 5 2005, 07:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>hi guys, Seriously lads I think we are getting a bit too technical with these ut2's and restricted rates. As far as I am concerned it all boils down to the old saying 'no pain,no gain'. The fact is you can fiddle around with your heart rates and your spms all you like but it dosen't mean you are acturally getting any better. Sure it might make you feel better but at the end of the day if you don't push your self extreamly hard at least every other session you are going nowhere. Now in all fairness guys nobody needs a heart rate moniter to feel the pain of a good 10 or 6k erg. Anto </td></tr></table> Anto, suggest you do some reading and research because I can only assume your comments are born out of either ignorance, testoterone, or you are just being sarcastic - because they are absolute rubbish. Go right ahead with that approach and no doubt you will improve for a while, I just hope someone has sympathy for you when you fail to reach potential or crash and burn. regds George ps Please dont include me in your 'we' as in 'you and I'

[old] Rocket Roy · Post by **[old] Rocket Roy** » January 4th, 2005, 4:22 pm

Anto, I'm afraid I'll have to side with George here. If you work the heart rate training correctly, then it will be the hardest training you have ever done. I know I did some 6 months training like this with Gus from Calif. and it was exxxxxtremely tough.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 4th, 2005, 6:07 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Rocket Roy @ Jan 5 2005, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Anto, I'm afraid I'll have to side with George here. </td></tr></table> No need to be afraid Roy, if he gets mean we can row away as fast as we can . Anyway the more I thought about it the more it 'pissed' me off that someone would dismiss the opinions supplied by people (us excluded) who have more collective knowledge 1st, 2nd, and 3rd hand than would be available in many other sports. I for one dont take the access we have to these people lightly . whether I agree all the time or not. - George

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 4th, 2005, 6:25 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Steve_R @ Jan 4 2005, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I have used warm up and cool down from a heart rate perspective, and not by time. It usually takes me about 3 minutes for warm up and 5 minutes for cool down. Maybe I have not been spending enough time here so suggestions from others are welcome. Steve </td></tr></table> Thanks for the reminder Steve, I've been slacking off on this. Do you have a specific heart rate (%MHR) that you warm up to for each of the bands? Mark

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » January 4th, 2005, 6:37 pm

I build warm-up and cool downs into my UT2 work so of a 15k or 60min row the first and last 'k' would be a little slower - for anything faster a warm-up needs to be based on the type of pace your going to head out at. regds George

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » January 4th, 2005, 6:53 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ninja @ Jan 4 2005, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As far as I am concerned it all boils down to the old saying 'no pain,no gain'. The fact is you can fiddle around with your heart rates and your spms all you like but it dosen't mean you are acturally getting any better. Sure it might make you feel better but at the end of the day if you don't push your self extreamly hard at least every other session you are going nowhere. Now in all fairness guys nobody needs a heart rate moniter to feel the pain of a good 10 or 6k erg. Anto </td></tr></table> I am by no means the most experienced of the bunch here, but your advice is the exact opposite of what I have learned to date. It is in fact the exact opposite of the advice that I would give anybody seeking it, especially those just starting out. I first purchased my C2 probably 6 or 7 years ago. At the time I was reasonably fit, just looking for an activity to keep me in shape. I also was one of the "no pain, no gain" believers and set out with the mindset that if I didn't hurl after a session I wasn't working hard enough. To make a short story shorter, I quickly injured my back with this approach - which turned me off of all forms of physical activity for a long time, except for running from the couch to the fridge and back again between commercials. I finally dusted off the erg in March 04, growing tired of my condition (or lack thereof) and increasingly fearful of rigor mortis. At the same time, I also bought a heart rate monitor which I have used every session since. What I have learned by using the HRM is that one doesn't need to endure pain to get a good workout and improve one's fitness level. Yes, you still have to do some work, but the HRM, used in combination with C2's guide and programme (Canadians spell it correctly too!) has greatly reduced the risk of injury and overtraining, as well as providing a means to measure my progress. The HRM has turned my erg from a $800 toe-stubbing dust collector into something I use almost every day. Regards, Mark

[old] Steve_R · Post by **[old] Steve_R** » January 4th, 2005, 7:31 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Mark Keating @ Jan 4 2005, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Do you have a specific heart rate (%MHR) that you warm up to for each of the bands?  </td></tr></table> I haven't gotten as sophisticated as to warm up to different bands. I normally work up to about 50-55% of reserve. As I said before, I have not trained much in AT,TR, or AN but for UT2/UT1, this works fine for me. Steve

[old] Mel Harbour · Post by **[old] Mel Harbour** » January 4th, 2005, 8:15 pm

For a warm-up, you want to be rowing at a UT2 intensity, however you choose to measure it! If you're going to be doing some harder work, you might want to stick in a few higher rate bursts. Your warm-up is a good time to stick in a few technical exercises, the classics being building up the stroke from one end or the other. In terms of warming down, again, UT2. If you've been exercising above the UT2/UT1 borderline, you really ought to keep rowing at the lower intensity until your blood lactate drops back to below 2mmol/l. Obviously it's not practical to do this for most people, but as a rough guide, you should be looking to carry on rowing until your heart rate has dropped back to the sort of rate you normally see for UT2 work. Mel

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » January 4th, 2005, 9:17 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (GeorgeD @ Jan 4 2005, 05:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Rocket Roy @ Jan 5 2005, 09:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Anto, I'm afraid I'll have to side with George here. </td></tr></table> No need to be afraid Roy, if he gets mean we can row away as fast as we can . Anyway the more I thought about it the more it 'pissed' me off that someone would dismiss the opinions supplied by people (us excluded) who have more collective knowledge 1st, 2nd, and 3rd hand than would be available in many other sports. I for one dont take the access we have to these people lightly . whether I agree all the time or not. - George  </td></tr></table> [/QUOTE] George i can't imagine a 110 kilo kiwi rowing away from anyone getting mean! GW

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 5th, 2005, 4:13 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ninja @ Jan 4 2005, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>hi guys, Seriously lads I think we are getting a bit too technical with these ut2's and restricted rates. As far as I am concerned it all boils down to the old saying 'no pain,no gain'. The fact is you can fiddle around with your heart rates and your spms all you like but it dosen't mean you are acturally getting any better. Sure it might make you feel better but at the end of the day if you don't push your self extreamly hard at least every other session you are going nowhere. Now in all fairness guys nobody needs a heart rate moniter to feel the pain of a good 10 or 6k erg. Anto </td></tr></table> Anto-- No one here has said that rowing in training bands defined by rate, heart rate, and pace does not include hard work. Where did you get that idea? The rub is how you do when you work hard, which in essence determines how you do when you race. The insight from these training plans is that you do better when you work hard if you first (and all along the way) do a lot of foundational work. BTW, done as specified, I find UT2 and UT1 work _very_ hard, although the difficulty is of a different sort than work in higher training bands. The focus of UT2 and UT1 work is on muscular, neuro-muscular, and technical/biomechanical fitness and efficiency (and that aspect of CV fitness associated with these things). How is your own racing? Are you succeeding as fully as you would like? If so, can you give us a little history of this success? The story would be interesting to hear, given your claim that improvement/achievement in racing is the goal. ranger