Squats

[old] JCG3888 · Post by **[old] JCG3888** » December 23rd, 2004, 11:09 pm

I am a highschool rower, and we have recently started out winter training regimine for the crew season. I have never been a big fan of squats so I have avoided doing them. I was wondering two things, 1) For weight traing geared towards rowing are squats a neccessity? 2) Besides leg press are there any substitutes?

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » December 23rd, 2004, 11:28 pm

1) Yes 2) even leg presses are no substitute for squats 3) do them more if you don't like them

[old] pduck · Post by **[old] pduck** » December 24th, 2004, 12:52 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Kudos @ Dec 23 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 1) Yes 2) even leg presses are no substitute for squats 3) do them more if you don't like them  </td></tr></table> I don't mind doing them, but I always end up with sore knees. Is there any way to avoid the knee problem? Do you do full squats, or half? Do you do squats before or after rowing? Are there any substitutes for people who don't have access to a gym? I have a small weight set, but I usually just use it for upper body workouts. I don't have a squat rack or anything like that. Thanks

[old] Bill · Post by **[old] Bill** » December 24th, 2004, 2:18 am

Hello, How about lunges instead of squats ? Or squats without weights - one legged squats ? Particularly if done at home, alone, I am concerned it might be quite easy to hurt oneself with squats. (visions of my wife coming home to find me flattened and immobile under a barbell .......... so I dont do them) Bill

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » December 24th, 2004, 12:06 pm

IMO Leg press is a poor substitute for squats. There are many forms of squats such as split squats, box squats, single leg squats or squat lift. Lunges, step ups, farmers walk and deadlifts are all good lower body strength developers. Focus more on developing good technique with out added resistance, a strong core will help with maintaining correct spinal positioning through out the full ROM in all the exercises listed above. GW

[old] TOMJFUNKSR · Post by **[old] TOMJFUNKSR** » December 24th, 2004, 1:33 pm

When doing squats do not let the knees travel forward over your toes. Squat as though you were sitting down in a chair. This avoids knee injuries. If you don't have a squat rack hold a dumbell in each hand at your side or on your shoulders. This is safer for your spine and works the quads very well. TF

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » December 24th, 2004, 2:27 pm

No matter how all these questions are answered it is opening a can of worms. The squat has long been considered the king of exercises. And the reason is because the basic squat works the whole body, not just the legs. That's why it is difficult to perform. So, no there is no substitute for the basic squat. There are variations of the squat that, for some people, they need to use because doing the basic squat is extremely difficult for them. I have trained many folks that because of limb lengths need to have a block under their heels just to make it to 90 degrees. Some just and inch or two, but others much more. This can make performing the basic squat extremely unsafe. A person with a long body and short legs is going to have a more difficult time performing a basic squat because there is a tendency to fold the body foward. While on the other hand a person with long legs and a short body has a tendency to rock to the rear. The most consistant squaters are folks that a built like fireplugs. Equal length torso and legs. Of course, there are going to be a few exceptions to this. If performing the basic squat is difficult for a given person, perhaps that person should consider a mix of deadlift and leg press. Deadlift has long been considered a great exercise like the basic squat. And although there is no direct downward force on the shoulders, like the squat it is very similiar in it's motion. And for the lower body, the leg press is a great developer. Before everyone starts yelling at me, this is just my opinion. Hopefully, I'm allowed that. Hey, it's Xmas eve. The wife tells me Santa ain't coming except to bring me a dish of coal. Ya Ha, wait til she sees what she's getting. Yoda

[old] allapologies916 · Post by **[old] allapologies916** » December 25th, 2004, 10:27 pm

Okay...... Rick, or whatever your name may be. Yeh... Anyways, I am in high school too, and I once hated squats, in fact, I still do. They make your knees sore, your back hurts like a bitch, and hell, I don't know many people who dont prefer leg press over squat. But... Let me tell you a secret, well, not really a secret as much as, what the hell, let me just tell you. Okay, after you do squats for a while, it doesnt get as bad, you get used to it/ back builds itself some support/ whatever. But... squats help you greatly if your doing weight training... 1- Yes, squats build back support, they work most of the muscles in your legs, and after the tips I give you, you can work your ass or your quads, or your hammies. 2- Not really, squat is what you need to get it all in there. Okay, when you squat, lower the weight a little bit, and instead of putting your feet shoulder width, put them about the same width as you would have them on the erg or in the boat. And do them like that (ROWING SPECIFIC MOVEMENTS) Then you can spread your legs a little further, and it works the insides of your legs more. You know, the muscle that guys say girls need. Then, there is just your basic squat. I personally suggest doing the squat with your feet at the boat/erg width. You may not be one of the leaders in the weight room on your team, but, since when has being the faster rower been about who can squat/bench/press the most. Oh yeh... pretty much never. Good luck with the weights man, let me know how it turns out.

[old] cityeast · Post by **[old] cityeast** » December 26th, 2004, 6:47 am

Anyone know any good links for proper squat technique?

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » December 26th, 2004, 2:27 pm

www.exrx.net www.eas.com - link to the training site for the animations. a good variation of the squat for rowers are "cyclist squats" put your feet at the same width you'd put on an erg about 4 inches apart - make sure your heels are on a 2x4 then squat "ass to the grass" - you won't be able to do nearly as much as you can with a regular back squat, but it's brutally effective. cheers, D

[old] cityeast · Post by **[old] cityeast** » December 26th, 2004, 2:47 pm

Thanx for the links However re the cyclist squats, I have read more advice against placing props under the heels, apparently it puts extreme stress on the knees. Is this true?

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » December 26th, 2004, 3:21 pm

Yes raising the heels will put more stress on the knees. The aim should be to keep yor shins as vertical as possible, certainly never passing over your toes. Don't forget in a squat you should always be pressing through your heels, raising your heels would encourage you to push with your toes. TBH squats are great for improving leg/back/all over strength and this will carry over well into your erging but trying to mimic the erging movement when you squat is just lining you up for injury. Read McRoberts books for squatting technique advice.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » December 26th, 2004, 9:07 pm

Based on the info that is being passed I would make this suggestion to those that believe you can perform a full back squat without allowing the knees to pass the toes. Put on a pair of shorts, tape a string with a small weight to the bitter end and let it hang freely while you perform a full squat. The only people that can perform that movement are the people that are short from the knee to the hip. Placing a 2x4 under the heels is to allow a person that is long from knee to hip to perform a squat. It may invite a person to push off the toes, but it is certainly better than falling over backward. And ass to grass is inviting a problem as well. With just a little too much weight, a person can watch their kneecaps blow across the room. I can think of NO sport that a person needs to perform squats below the 90 degree point. That is 90 degrees off of the lower leg. Not off the floor. If a person wishes to develop the glutes there are many other exercises that can be done. Off the bottom is pure glute work. If it's the quads that are to be strengthened then there is no reason to go beyond that magic 90 degree mark. Just an opinion, guys. No yelling at me. Yoda

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » December 27th, 2004, 4:50 pm

Sorry but I think that it is VERY doable for somebody who has the correct flexibility to perform the squat without the knees passing the toes. This is the distinction between 'sitting back' in the squat which is the safer squat, and sinking down concertina style. Those that fall backwards are probably trying to stay too upright. Saying all this if you squat with heels raised and knees going well over the toes and 'DON'T' have knee problems then good luck to you carry on. If you do have knee problems squatting sitting back and keeping the shins more vertical will go a long way to helping you. At the end of the day each to their own! With regards to one of the original questions 2) Besides leg press are there any substitutes? Deadlifts as has been mentioned and Trap bar Deadlifts are also a brutal substitute.

[old] Paul Smith · Post by **[old] Paul Smith** » December 27th, 2004, 5:06 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Yoda1 @ Dec 26 2004, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I can think of NO sport that a person needs to perform squats below the 90 degree point. That is 90 degrees off of the lower leg. Not off the floor.  </td></tr></table> Yoda, not sure I may have got the wrong end of the stick here but I'd have though quite a few sports require the knee bend going beyond 90degrees, erging for one. Also in performing the squat it is gerneraly advised to squat to slightly below parallel shifting some of the breaking forces off the thighs and knees and onto the hams and glutes, this is of course going further than 90degrees. Stopping at 90degrees, taking slight forward lean of the shins into account, would make the move practicaly a half squat. Not really advised and often performed by those trying to squat with too heavy a weight than they are capable of.

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