[In]decent Intervals

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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NavigationHazard
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » February 23rd, 2019, 4:00 am

2/20 was 60' on the TechnoGym recumbent cycle at a nominal 327 watts. I have no real idea how accurate the watt calculation is -- many gym cycles notoriously overestimate the work being done, but IIRC TechnoGym claims +/- 2% accuracy for this piece of kit. Assuming for the purposes of argument that it is, there's also no good way of knowing how results on a gym bike might translate into erging values. Given that 327 watts on an erg is 1:42.3 pace, which is just slightly over the 60-69 MHW 5000m world record, I'm highly, bigly, enormously skeptical that I could get anywhere near that over more than 3 times the duration. Still, the effort involved was non-trivial.

I had a low-carbohydrate isotonic sports drink immediately afterward, plus a protein-enhanced yogurt shake and another of the sports drinks, then went out with Ms. NavHaz for Portuguese food: in my case, a small but delicious skirt steak, the best caldo verde I've had outside of Lisbon, yellow rice, a mixed greens salad with goat cheese, and two 300 ml non-alcoholic beers (more replacement carbs). We walked home and I took a blood-glucose reading. Holy ****: 66 ml/Dl, which is eat immediately territory and hope I don't need to speed dial the ambulance if it falls much further.... I had second dinner before going to bed and experienced nothing untoward. Mostly the point is that the 1227 calories I theoretically expended during the ride, plus the aftereffects of increased metabolism, represented a significant effort. 327 watts on an erg is 1422 calories/hr -- reckoned on the basis of a 165 lb person moving back and forth. Let's say I'm considerably larger....

2/21 I took the day off out of prudence.

2/22 I spent the morning in consultation with a new diabetologist here in Wroclaw (I shifted medical providers). I was quite impressed with her knowledge, and also her interest in me as an individual (and probably unique) patient. The short story is that thanks to the training and the dietary/lifestyle changes, my diabetes is in technical remission. That is to say, average blood glucose levels and other blood chemistry are below the thresholds where doctors normally formally diagnose the disease. That doesn't mean that the underlying problem has -- or ever will -- go away. But it does mean that I'm pretty successfully, and evidently quite exceptionally, managing the problems associated with excess blood glucose.

Indeed, my proximate problem these days is the opposite one from the usual diabetic experience: low blood glucose. The diabetologist and I talked over workouts, meals, hydration, and medication (among other things). I am going to try switching to eating smaller portions of food roughly every three waking hours in an attempt to flatten out some of the peaks/valleys a more traditional meal schedule tends to produce. I also now have a booklet from the Polish diabetic association on managing diabetes and exercise. It's in Polish, but I can read it. And it's full of useful recommendations regarding monitoring, diet and hydration before, during and after exercise (including serious efforts rather than the low-moderate levels of activity normally undertaken by exercising diabetics). I've already started in on them. I've also been switched to an extended-release glucose inhibitor that again will have the effect of flattening out peaks and filling in valleys during my day.

After the doctor's visit I managed 14 x 1' r20 on 30" rest:

Image

I added 30 mins on the Technogym recumbent at a nominal 338 watts. And 20 minutes in the Jacuzzi :-)
67 MH 6' 6"

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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » February 23rd, 2019, 12:21 pm

2/23 13 x 1' r30 on 30 secs just now. The idea was to row 1:40.5 ish for the first 12 and boom....

Image

Okay, I indulged in 4 extra strokes on the last rep....

I added 30 mins on the TechnoGym recumbent at a nominal 332 watts, cadence 52. HR averaged just 128 on the ride, in considerable part because I paid attention to hydration during it....
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » February 24th, 2019, 2:24 pm

20 x 1' r28 on 30" today. The plan was to hold 1:42 through roughly 20 reps, take stock, and either soldier on until 30 reps or else boom....

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Fairly obviously, I chose "boom".... Okay, I indulged myself with a few extra strokes on rep 20....
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » February 27th, 2019, 2:40 am

2/25 I attempted the Team Oarsome February Challenge, namely a 5k. I was cruising along at about 23 strokes/minute and 1:48.5 pace, having done the first 4k at 1:49 pace and then picking up the pace (considerably) en route to what was planned to be a fast finish. I passed the 4250m mark with the split down to 1:40 and the rating up to 24/25. All of a sudden the screen went blank for an instant, and then I got an Error Code 22291-46 message. This PM5 may have a problem.... WTAF. I took a quick screenshot -- my phone had been ready for an end-of-workout snap -- and punched "continue" to discover that the PM5 had been running 'underneath' the error message. I theoretically had done the 260m from 4k to 4260 at 1:52.3 pace and a stroke rate of 12.... I thought momentarily about keeping going, but decided that the lost time had ruined my goal of finishing under 18 minutes r24. I punched in a new 1k and rowed it out at a modest 1:37 pace. Afterwards I discovered that I'd gotten a text message on the phone at what must have been the same time as the error message. Either it or else my phone trying to alert me to the text seem to have triggered the error display. Oh well, lesson learned. Switch off incoming calls and messages when using ErgData....

2/26 I spent the morning at the medical lab, having multiple tests. When I went to work out I made about 6 abortive tries at a new 5k r24 but couldn't get my head around it. I ended up doing 6 x 500m r30 on 1 min instead, on the theory that I could hold 1:40 pace on autopilot and then allow instinct to kick in on the last rep:

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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 2nd, 2019, 4:45 am

2/28 I spent the day shuttling between three separate lab tests and three related physician consultations, in two different locations in the city. I had to fast for the morning tests, which creates difficulties later on for training on account of my diabetes management. And I got to the gym late. I started out with intent to do 6 x 500m r32 on 1' rest, finished two reps and realized I didn't have enough time to complete even that. So I set up a 1 minute row and had a go. Result: 362m, 1:22.8 pace per the PM5, ranked and tied for 2nd in the year's age-group rankings. I honestly had no real idea of how fast I was going. I almost certainly could have been faster had I not been wearing fairly slippery shorts as far as sprinting is concerned. I slid around a bit on the seat and lost some connection. I also rowed out the last two strokes arms only, as I thought I was closer to the finish than it turned out to be. 370m ought to be doable w/o much ado, should I feel like another go. For what it's worth the current age-group WR is 378m....

3/1 I did the CTC r24 as a kind of benchmark. 1:38.9 pace, which was pretty constant. Some idiot pulled the fire alarm in the building where the gym is as I was finishing the last 666m piece. Not once, not twice, but a total of five different times. It was -- needless to say -- distracting. I left immediately after the final 333m piece, as that's when an announcement came over the PA system. At that point there were at least six fire engines outside the building and a bevy of police cars. AFAIK it was a false alarm turned in by inebriated guests in the hotel that shares the complex....
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 2nd, 2019, 3:41 pm

20 x 1 min r20 on 30" rest this evening. I'd intended to essay 30 reps, but badly missed the start on rep 19 while dinking around with a dropped water bottle. My displayed pace after the delayed stroke 1 was something like 3:37. I managed to claw back the missed time and finish the rep okay, but totally lost my rhythm in the process. I therefore decided to bail out after the next rep.

Here;s the ErgData screenshot for rep 15. It was the most efficient in terms of stroke-to-stroke consistency of any of the reps....

Image
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 7th, 2019, 2:38 am

Bit of a medical setback -- 3/3 and 3/4 I did stationary-cycle workouts, the former 30 minutes @ 336 watts and the latter a rather heroic 60 minutes @ 327 watts. I tried following the Polish Diabetes Association guidelines for hydration during exercise. They got me through the hour just fine. It was after the hour that I ran into difficulties.

For what so far are baffling reasons, I experienced a number of seizures on the night of the 4th/5th. I think they probably reflect delayed onset diabetic hypoglycemia connected to the rather hard, protracted workouts. And quite possibly exacerbated by dehydration despite my attempts at hydration during the sessions. The doctors in Wroclaw aren't so confident they can pinpoint a source. Anyway, they 1) sent me to the emergency rooms of the University hospital here for the day (where nothing obvious turned up), and 2) have caused me to take at least a few days off of training. ...

Blergh.
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by MartinSH4321 » March 7th, 2019, 5:12 am

NavigationHazard wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 2:38 am
Bit of a medical setback -- 3/3 and 3/4 I did stationary-cycle workouts, the former 30 minutes @ 336 watts and the latter a rather heroic 60 minutes @ 327 watts. I tried following the Polish Diabetes Association guidelines for hydration during exercise. They got me through the hour just fine. It was after the hour that I ran into difficulties.

For what so far are baffling reasons, I experienced a number of seizures on the night of the 4th/5th. I think they probably reflect delayed onset diabetic hypoglycemia connected to the rather hard, protracted workouts. And quite possibly exacerbated by dehydration despite my attempts at hydration during the sessions. The doctors in Wroclaw aren't so confident they can pinpoint a source. Anyway, they 1) sent me to the emergency rooms of the University hospital here for the day (where nothing obvious turned up), and 2) have caused me to take at least a few days off of training. ...

Blergh.
Damn, wish you all the best and a fast recovery!
1983 Austria 1.86 94Kg
LP: 1:03.4 100m: 13.3 1': 392m 500m: 1:21.4
1k: 3:05 2k: 6:43 5k: 17:53 30': 8237m 30R20: 8088m 10k: 36:39
60': 16087m, HM: 1:19:42

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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by MartinSH4321 » March 7th, 2019, 5:24 am

NavigationHazard wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 4:00 am
2/20 was 60' on the TechnoGym recumbent cycle at a nominal 327 watts. I have no real idea how accurate the watt calculation is -- many gym cycles notoriously overestimate the work being done, but IIRC TechnoGym claims +/- 2% accuracy for this piece of kit. Assuming for the purposes of argument that it is, there's also no good way of knowing how results on a gym bike might translate into erging values. Given that 327 watts on an erg is 1:42.3 pace, which is just slightly over the 60-69 MHW 5000m world record, I'm highly, bigly, enormously skeptical that I could get anywhere near that over more than 3 times the duration. Still, the effort involved was non-trivial.
I only have a german source (the abstract is also in english), according to this the cycle movement is more effective than rowing movement.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 0301-0_127
For a typical person the body has to burn 4,35x the energy that is produced on the cycle, but 5,25x that is produced on the rower. I don't know if this is understandable enough, so as an example:
The body has to burn 1000W to cycle with 230W or to row with 190W.
So, according to this source, your 327W cycling corresponds to 270W rowing (1:49 pace) which is about 16.500m/1h, a great effort! :-) Does this sound realistic to you?
1983 Austria 1.86 94Kg
LP: 1:03.4 100m: 13.3 1': 392m 500m: 1:21.4
1k: 3:05 2k: 6:43 5k: 17:53 30': 8237m 30R20: 8088m 10k: 36:39
60': 16087m, HM: 1:19:42

Concept3
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by Concept3 » March 7th, 2019, 6:39 am

So the 1.25x multiplier Painsled uses according to this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184763) is pretty much right on spot.
CJOttawa wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 2:00 pm
The app has a bunch of great features, including a "Wattage" conversion that applies a multiplier (something in the neighbourhood of 1.25x) to your rowing power to bring it more in line with what you'd be generating on a bike.
I also wish you a quick recovery NavigationHazard.

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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 7th, 2019, 10:23 am

Thanks, I'm pretty hard to kill off and I'd like to stay that way. I"m hoping to be back in the saddle tomorrow (wife permitting)....

1:49 pace for an hour on the cycle sounds like a rough equivalent. The thing is, a continuous hour of rowing is close to out of the question for me these days because of the need to take on fuel during the effort. If I am going to do long UT2-type workouts they've either got to be broken up with hydration/nutrition/monitoring breaks or else done on a cycle so that I can use my hands in such endeavors.... 90-minute rows, of the sort favored by some versions of the C2 Interactive plan, are even more problematic.
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by Tenshuu » March 7th, 2019, 2:25 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 10:23 am
Thanks, I'm pretty hard to kill off and I'd like to stay that way. I"m hoping to be back in the saddle tomorrow (wife permitting)....

1:49 pace for an hour on the cycle sounds like a rough equivalent. The thing is, a continuous hour of rowing is close to out of the question for me these days because of the need to take on fuel during the effort. If I am going to do long UT2-type workouts they've either got to be broken up with hydration/nutrition/monitoring breaks or else done on a cycle so that I can use my hands in such endeavors.... 90-minute rows, of the sort favored by some versions of the C2 Interactive plan, are even more problematic.
Gotta get yourself a camel-bak for those long rows man! Hands free hydration =P

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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 15th, 2019, 2:28 am

Enforced hiatus for a few days while on medication and getting checked out. Evidently I had some sort of sinus infection that was blocking my airways while I was sleeping. Industrial-strength antibiotics have cleaned that out....

3/12 I did 20 minutes on the stationary cycle at 338 nominal watts, plus weights.

3/13 I dinked around with short high power/low rate intervals on the erg, e.g. 13 x 1' r24 on 30" rest at 1:40.8 pace, added 20 minutes on the Technogym recumbent at a nominal 347 watts, and threw in more weights.

3/14 I revisited the CTC: 3996 total meters divided between 666m and 333m reps, 10:30 total rest to be apportioned as you wish. I did it r20, with 1' rest after the 666m pieces and 2' after the 333m pieces. I realized only after the fact that I left myself 30 seconds of rest short.... Anyway, I averaged 1:42.9 pace with rep 8 at 1:40.9 pace. I scared myself during rep 6 (a 333m piece), when I theoretically started the rep with a displayed HR of 197 bpm and theoretically peaked at 203 bpm towards the end of it. Um, I don't think so. Most likely there was crosstalk from some other HR belt going on, or else radio interference from one of the nearby treadmills that started up around that time. The reps before and after were mostly normal, except for a spike at the end of rep 8 from the 171 bpm (that was probably correct at that point) up to a theoretical 189 bpm. Even though I know intellectually to disregard such anomalies, they're still disconcerting when they happen. And when they happen after a medical problem like seizures, they're really really really disconcerting....

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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 16th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Yesterday (3/15) was 14 x 1' r20 on 30" at 1:44.3 average pace.

Today was the same workout, slightly slower:

Image

This is one of the reasons it was slightly slower. The gynormous spike in the rating in this graph of rep 4 theoretically shows a stroke at a rating of 159 spm. What happened was that I felt (and heard) a 'pop' in the chain at the catch, with the grab seemingly coming from right behind the handle rather than from the sprocket mechanism. I don't exactly know what I did with my hands at the time, but it seems that the monitor incorrectly registered the end of a very short-duration stroke. I spent a good deal of the rest of the workout anxiously anticipating another occurrence that never happened. After the workout I was unable to duplicate the anomaly. I have no real idea what happened....
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Re: [In]decent Intervals

Post by NavigationHazard » March 19th, 2019, 2:53 pm

3/17 11 x 1' r20 on 30" rest at 1:46.2 pace; 30' on the TechnoGym recumbent at 338 nominal watts
3/18 14 x 1' r20 on 30" rest at 1:45.9 pace, #14 at 1:39.3 pace

3/19 20 x 1' r20 on 30" rest at 1:45.6 pace:

Image

I had an echocardiogram after the workout, everything checking out just fine.
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