Form

[RayOfSunshine]

Any suggestions for off-erg exercises/stretches to help with "11-1"?

I worked on form 2 times in the last week and realized it's crap. I'm basically using 90% legs and am moving from about "10:30-11:30". As I worked on it, I noticed my drive length going from 1.18-1.24 to 1.24-1.27 (with some going 1.3+) and my pace dropping with no additional effort.

I found a bunch of videos showing drills to do on the erg. Now, I need to actually work on them. I found this video very helpful illustrating what I am missing from the trunk and arms (on their graph).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz7prnXGmlc

Note: I've done zero weights/stretching/workouts off the erg to help on. I've focused solely on getting more meters.

Thanks in advance.

[G-dub]

I’m only 5-8” and ergdata says my drive length is 1.48 usually. So maybe I’m getting enough angle!

If you think about it, the forward part is a hinge from the waist. Stand up with an empty broomstick or something similar and practice hinging from the waist with a flat back. That should help wake up that movement. Apparently many of us have lost that pattern along the way. You could then take that to stiff legged or Romanian deadlifts with a light weight. Stretching hamstrings is also important for this part. An easy way to get more length at front is to lower feet down to make up for any ankle inflexibility. Now that I mention it, ankle flexibility! And I also like to sit at the bottom of a goblet squat to really open the hips so as to help get more compression at catch. Finally, for this part, hanging from a bar or set of rings really stretches back, shoulders and arms. I swear it’s made me longer. And finally finally, being relaxed on the recovery let’s the arms get longer and the legs to fold more

For the layback, this is a hip opening move. Here is where good core strength helps. Requires hip flexors to be opened up, which get tight from sitting all day. So hip flexor stretches. I may be wrong, but kettlebell swings, to me, mirror the hip opening and work the plank. Planks help as does rolling out on an ab wheel

[Dangerscouse]

I think Glenn has covered it all. Stretch, stretch and more stretching!!

[hjs]

Stretch and yoga. Warming a muscle up very well and making it tired before you stretch is very helpfull.

Rocking over on the erg can be done very well either sitting on the erg without pulling the chain, or simply sit on the ground and practice the rockover.

[RayOfSunshine]

Thank you! Very helpful.

[G-dub]

Couple of more thoughts! Length has been a big thing for me at my height and needing to be long to row in better boats:
- to henry’s point, pausing at hands away body over and really working on keeping those knees down and getting rocked over as far as can as a stretch is helpful. This can also be brought into low rate rows - pause at hands away body over then fold into catch nice and easy.
- I used to not do much layback. I put a chair behind me at a position that would get me to the right angle and worked on laying back until I hit the chair consistently.
- finally, even with erging, I think getting those hands away at the turnaround quickly and following them with the rock over quickly really helps. Then you just fold on up to the catch

[StrengthCoachWill]

How's your standing hip hinge? It's a deficient movement pattern in a lot of rowers I work with. Similar to what you're describing, people tend to do the motion with their back (lumbar flexion) or their knees (like squatting down), and they never get their hips into it. It's a movement that is much easier to master on solid ground, on your own two feet, before then applying it to the erg. I wrote about this with pictures and videos at the link below. Once you have the movement down, strengthening and improving flexibility of the movement are mutually reinforcing. Exercises like pullthroughs, Romanian deadlifts, and more in the article also provide a great stretch for the posterior muscles on the way down, then a strengthening contraction on the way up, plus you're getting more comfortable with spinal stability while loading the hip hinge, which will hopefully make it easier to achieve the same in the stroke.

https://rowingstronger.com/2016/08/01/m ... or-rowing/

[RayOfSunshine]

@Glenn, are you extremely flexible?

If I'm trying to touch my toes, I can only make it about half way down my shins. It's pathetic and always has been. All the back issues I've ever had have been due to poor flexibility with my hamstrings & hip flexors and weight. I'm down 45+ lbs (20+ kg), but I am still tight.

@Henry, you mentioned 2 words I hate. #1 stretching, #2 yoga (because I'm so inflexible). I need to suck it up and do it if I want to get better. It's really limiting me and I noticed it during my 10k today (PB by the way). I was NOT getting to 11. It was more like 12-1.

@Will, thank you for sharing. This is really good stuff. I'm going to start with the pull-throughs using Thera-bands. In my youth, I excelled at squats for being so light (I was skinny once). I was fast at sprints and played college soccer. However, looking at your link... I think my hip hinge/form was/is really poor.

Thanks everyone. I have a lot to work on.

[StrengthCoachWill]

@Glenn, are you extremely flexible?

If I'm trying to touch my toes, I can only make it about half way down my shins. It's pathetic and always has been. All the back issues I've ever had have been due to poor flexibility with my hamstrings & hip flexors and weight. I'm down 45+ lbs (20+ kg), but I am still tight.

@Henry, you mentioned 2 words I hate. #1 stretching, #2 yoga (because I'm so inflexible). I need to suck it up and do it if I want to get better. It's really limiting me and I noticed it during my 10k today (PB by the way). I was NOT getting to 11. It was more like 12-1.

@Will, thank you for sharing. This is really good stuff. I'm going to start with the pull-throughs using Thera-bands. In my youth, I excelled at squats for being so light (I was skinny once). I was fast at sprints and played college soccer. However, looking at your link... I think my hip hinge/form was/is really poor.

Thanks everyone. I have a lot to work on.

Start with just getting the motion down, with no load. Check out the videos especially the butt-to-wall and PVC pipe drill. These are the best ways to get the hinge motion down. If you don't have the hinge, and you try to load it, you're just going to make whatever current problems you have worse. Based on your other answers, I think getting the hinge movement pattern down is going to help with hamstring flexibility, hip flexor flexibility, and then ultimately, your reach. I've got an article on my site for hip flexor mobility for rowers with drills there as well. Put the movement patterns together with the flexibility and strength training, and the erging technique work will come much easier.

[hjs]

@Glenn, are you extremely flexible?

If I'm trying to touch my toes, I can only make it about half way down my shins. It's pathetic and always has been. All the back issues I've ever had have been due to poor flexibility with my hamstrings & hip flexors and weight. I'm down 45+ lbs (20+ kg), but I am still tight.

@Henry, you mentioned 2 words I hate. #1 stretching, #2 yoga (because I'm so inflexible). I need to suck it up and do it if I want to get better. It's really limiting me and I noticed it during my 10k today (PB by the way). I was NOT getting to 11. It was more like 12-1.

@Will, thank you for sharing. This is really good stuff. I'm going to start with the pull-throughs using Thera-bands. In my youth, I excelled at squats for being so light (I was skinny once). I was fast at sprints and played college soccer. However, looking at your link... I think my hip hinge/form was/is really poor.

Thanks everyone. I have a lot to work on.

Thats really poor

The very good thing about that is that its super untrained, its also not something that needs lots of time, 5/10 min per time is plenty. But do it often. Get this fixed/better and your stroke will be longer and thus stronger.

Congrats on the sub40

[Concept3]

I’m only 5-8” and ergdata says my drive length is 1.48 usually.

This is quite a long stroke for your size. I always wonder what it ideally should be on steadystate rows. ED shows me usually 1.33 to 1.36 for 187cm (~6-1). I can force it to be 1.45ish but this don't feel natural. Is my strokelength to short for my dimensions and should i work on it?

[lindsayh]

I’m only 5-8” and ergdata says my drive length is 1.48 usually.

This is quite a long stroke for your size. I always wonder what it ideally should be on steadystate rows. ED shows me usually 1.33 to 1.36 for 187cm (~6-1). I can force it to be 1.45ish but this don't feel natural. Is my strokelength to short for my dimensions and should i work on it?

Glen is very long from what I understand - the whole thing with stroke length is a bit of a mystery for me and I suspect it is a bit like DF in that it probably doesn't make as much difference as you might think it should. I'm 182cm and stroke length is 1.27 through to 1.33 most off the time unless I really stretch it and I think my technique is ok. Our performance is measured as a mix of stroke power, our stroke rate and how long we can sustain it for!

[hjs]

I’m only 5-8” and ergdata says my drive length is 1.48 usually.

This is quite a long stroke for your size. I always wonder what it ideally should be on steadystate rows. ED shows me usually 1.33 to 1.36 for 187cm (~6-1). I can force it to be 1.45ish but this don't feel natural. Is my strokelength to short for my dimensions and should i work on it?

Arm lenghts, shoulderwith, legs versus trunk, pulling the handle up hight or not. All things that matter one way or another.

Overall toprowers imo do not overly lenghten their stroke, but more more cut it a bit short, this gives them more rating.

[lindsayh]

Arm lenghts, shoulderwith, legs versus trunk, pulling the handle up hight or not. All things that matter one way or another.
Overall toprowers imo do not overly lenghten their stroke, but more more cut it a bit short, this gives them more rating.

I agree Henry - makes sense not to go too long.

[G-dub]

I also agree that getting outside of ones useful body position isn’t worth it. It is highly likely that I am! When I was just erging I didn’t worry too much about length, although recognized its benefits if it was good length - tall guys vs short guys and all that.

It was when I started rowing OTW that it became important because one of the people that we call coach (volunteer) made a big deal about it all the time and I got sick of hearing it and having everybody else hear it about me! Also the fine people on the shore watching races I was in usually said “you need to get more layback” or “you need to set your body angle more”, which always made me feel fantastic. So I had to figure out how to get longer. Mostly I did so by getting more limber. It’s likely that I’m rounding my back and extending my shoulders too much. I tried the excuse of efficiency but there is a need to match other people in a boat from a set and power application standpoint and they are all taller and the good ones are longer. So I probably give up some efficiency but match the crews I row with a little better.

To be honest, most of the time I’ve looked at drive length using ergdata it’s been on low to mid rate rows because I use rowpro and rarely use ergdata. This week when I do my r30 and above work I will use it and see. Not that you guys care that much but I’d find it interesting to see and compare. I’m pretty sure it will be shorter! And to the points above, rating real high on the erg is harder to do now vs what it used to be because of the time it takes to fold and unfold