MHR: That doesn't seem right

[pdduggan]

Me: 47 year-old male. Not in super condition but not a total embarrassment. 5'8". 157lb (and decreasing).

I've been back on the C2 for about 8 wks after a lengthy period of laziness. Started off just doing long UT2 sessions and then started mixing in some interval sessions (20s/40s or 30s/90s all-out/walking pace). I tend to use a Polar HRM when exercising to check for progress and keep me on the straight and narrow.

When I first started the intervals about a month ago I was peaking at 183-184 in (actually just after finishing) the all-out periods. While still going *all-out* (I swear) I'm now no longer able to achieve that HR. In fact, the maximum I am now able to push to is 173-174, and probably still dropping. I know I'm not slacking. My average meters/interval are still increasing.

For ref my RHR is about 45-47 and seems to be dropping also. I was under the impression that MHR is MHR and that, apart from dropping at the rate of about 1bpm/yr, there's no changing it. Can anybody please explain why training seems to be affecting mine, and tell me whether I should be worried that it's going in what seems to be the 'wrong' direction? I was actually quite pleased when it looked like it was <rule of thumb>+10. Now; not so much.

Thanks.

[Dangerscouse]

I find HR a really misleading unit of measurement of progress.

What is far more important is, what pace, distance and wattage are you achieving in your sessions? I only ever use a HR monitor when I'm doing a HR restricted session now days. Checking HR can be very distracting

I know an excellent rower (2k in 6:14 & FM in 2hrs 32m) with a MHR of 168 and others equally as good who go over 200. There is no logic to it so I really wouldn't worry especially if you are making progress.

[Citroen]

One thing that can be said for certain, your max HR will NOT be 173 (220 - 47) as that has been shown to be a total load of baloney.

To discover it you should do a step test to failure (with someone to help you).

The thing you should be measuring is HR range (max - min) as that's a closer proxy to fitness levels. The absolute values don't really matter.

[pdduggan]

Thanks. I’m just concerned because it seems to be dropping. It does actually seem to be 173 now but probably won’t be for long.

I only really use the HRM for - as you say - limited sessions where I want to stick to UT2, which I do judge by the HRR method. It’s on when I’m doing intervals because I usually do some UT2 after finishing them and I just let Polar Beat record everything. Just because. I’m not doing maximal sprints while eyeing my HR at the same time! Everything’s a blur after interval #4 anyway!

I’m not rowing to get better at rowing tbh. I’m trying to get to my ideal weight, not lose muscle and then maintain when I get there. No competitions or 2k targets for me.

[Carl Watts]

I know someone with a heartrate in your range that is quicker than I am at distance rowing so I wouldn't be worried. Your resting HR is very low as well.

Why don't you post your workout results that gives you that max HR ?

At the end of the day its not really the HR that matters and its the result that puts the HR into perspective. You could be rowing anything from 1:46 pace to 2:30 pace and getting that HR depending on your ability.

Also I used to run a stopwatch at the end to see how fast the recover was. For me it was the time taken to drop from 180's to 120. The faster the recovery the fitter you are.

[jamesg]

You're getting better at rowing slowly. Hardly unexpected, well done, nothing to complain about.

Suggest you watch what you are doing, not your reactions, if you want to go faster.

The C2 erg is a unique machine in that it lets us do this, by indicating our Power output in Watts. The Watt/rating ratio is a measure of stroke quality, the higher the better, and once you develop your CV and waste removal systems you'll need to go very fast to raise your HR.

[Ombrax]

Your "real" max HR isn't dropping. What's happening is that you're improving your cardio-vascular system so your heart is working more efficiently and it doesn't have to beat as often as before.

This is a good thing and back when I didn't row much but mostly cycled and took the winter off the same thing would happen to me in March/April when I started to ride again. On the tough hill at the end of my rides my HR would skyrocket. After a few weeks of riding I'd start to get into shape again and I would never hit those max peaks again, unless I really tried to kill myself.

[lindsayh]

Your "real" max HR isn't dropping. What's happening is that you're improving your cardio-vascular system so your heart is working more efficiently and it doesn't have to beat as often as before.

I agree - your MHR wont change dramatically (as you say as well) but the training is no longer maximal as you get fitter (and that is a good thing). To find max you need to do a max session to failure. Try 4'/1'R each one stepped down faster so that the 6th is almost impossible to finish and you will be close to real MHR.

[pdduggan]

Lindsay, Ombrax:
Thanks. It still feels like I'm flogging myself as hard as before but no, I'm not doing a test to failure. As Citroen also said maybe that would give me the real picture then.

jamesg:
Are you implying I really should be looking to improve technique? I don't just let it all go when I'm doing intervals but things are definitely more ragged than when I'm doing UT2. Especially at the point where my legs just will not work properly any more. Not sure that's avoidable with this type of interval?
As I said I'm not paying attention to the numbers while working, just when I'm doing my nerdy OCD analysis later. I'm an engineer. Can't help it. Health/fitness/diet seems to be a pit that the OCD inclined can easily disappear into without trace (without a wife and 4-year-old daughter to ground me a bit).

Carl:
I'll post some data tonight and would appreciate any comments on it. I've not specifically tested my recovery times and couldn't put any numbers to it but I know it's better than it was. Sadly I don't seem to be able to hit the 180s now but I'll start paying attention to my max to 120 time. Something new to obsess with sounds fun.

Thanks for responses.

[jamesg]

Better fitness allows better strokes, because better means more work in each one. These better strokes then increase the load, snowball effect.

Engineers say Work= Force x Length. Rowing technique takes account of this by letting us pull long strokes.

[Allan Olesen]

I can certainly relate to being obsessed about heart rate during training. I am obsessing about that too. Perhaps because I am also an engineer.

But max. heart rate is in my opinion a rather boring number which doesn't carry much information. If your max. recorded heart rate goes down, does it mean that your muscles make less work than they did before so they need less fuel? Or does it mean that your heart pumps more fuel per heart beat than it did before, while the muscles make the same or more work? Without knowing that, there is no way to know if you should be satisfied or dissatisfied with a lower max. heart rate.

What I obsess about instead, is the relation between heart rate and power output:

• 9 months ago I could produce 60-70 Watt at a heart rate of 120-130 BPM

• 3 months ago I could produce 120-130 Watt at a heart rate of 120-130 BPM

• Now I can produce 130-140 Watt at a heart rate of 120-130 BPM

To me, this kind of statistic carries much more information that some random max. recorded heart rate. It is very obvious that my power output per heart beat goes up, and that can only be a good thing.

[Carl Watts]

Right it seems this thread is full of engineers !

Also rather than max HR your really looking for your range in HR, that is the difference between your resting and your max.

If you look at the calculator here which was my BIBLE for years you will see your training bands.

http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/ ... calculator

I had this printed out with my HR for each band written on the end and it was stuck on the wall by the Erg.

[PaulDuggan]

What's the best format for posting data here? Should I add cvs/XSLs as attachments?

[Citroen]

What CSV or XML are you planning to post and why would we be interested in it?

[Carl Watts]

What's the best format for posting data here? Should I add cvs/XSLs as attachments?

Some people just post a picture of the results on the monitor.

You can in reality just type in the top line in the memory of the monitor. Its simply time/pace/spm and the average HR is all your interested in.