Catch And Resistance

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » October 4th, 2004, 7:53 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Carl Henrik @ Oct 3 2004, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> PaulS, While there very well may be a sucker born every minute, there is a least one less than you imply and probably more. I've learnt alot from your postings on this forum and the old one and know the diffrence from PS and BS. And just because I don't think suckers are plenty amongst rowers and readers of this forum I think you might as well continue this specific "discussion" in private with John if you so wish and thereby once again do the forum members a favour.  </td></tr></table> Apparently I've "implied" too broad of a population, but come on, you know who you are, or aren't (don't you?). You are right though, this has gone down a path that could have been diverted. A couple points, and I won't bother you with any more. I've had extensive private communication with JR and if I shared them with you it would be hard to believe that it has degenerated to what happens here from time to time. Go back to the first page of this thread and take a look at how it started, I was directly addressing the issue at hand, kept a fairly good humor regarding the initial attack on credibility and the humourous suggestion of dual identity. I'm not exactly the type to be a self-agrandizing blow hard, but I'm also not going to let an idiot get away with a bunch of crap. Anyway, I prefer "pompus egotistical ass". - Paul Smith

[old] Prufrock · Post by **[old] Prufrock** » October 4th, 2004, 8:33 am

Hi Paul I have not been involved in this forum for very long and for the most part have found postings by yourself, Dwayne, Sir Pirate, Ranger, GeorgeD et al. very informative and needless to say have acted on most of what you have suggested as it passes my reality check. Surely this is the point of this forum. Sometimes other people say things which are, perhaps misguided. As Carl has said we are not all suckers and yes, believe it or not, we can tell the difference between PS and BS. I don't know what the history is between yourself and John Rupp and I have no wish to know, but at the risk of sounding obvious, I, like everyone else, tend to ignore the "bunch of crap" spouted by anyone who possibly accidently only manages to delude. Trust me, John nor anyone else gets away with that. Disagreeing with someone surely doesn't mean alienating other people by using inappropriately aggressive tones. Prufrock

[old] Mikebell · Post by **[old] Mikebell** » October 4th, 2004, 1:20 pm

Unfortunately, I am getting more and more confused as I read through this thread (I did enjoy the PaulS' quote from the 04 Olympics though). This is my understanding: Erging at low drag, low stroke rate, strapless and at 10mps, will enable better technique. A technique that can translate over to rowing in a 1x? Can I get a quick how and why? Or, have I completely missed the boat? To give a quick background: I have been erging for a little over a year and change and been rowing for a few mos. I have seen how rowing technique can improve erging technique but this thread has just lost me.

[old] Sir Pirate · Post by **[old] Sir Pirate** » October 4th, 2004, 2:05 pm

Can I stir it up a bit please? I have a question on Strapless rowing. I have never seen the point in rowing strapless. Example. I ride my bike 25miles a day. I have toe straps and strap my feet in whilst riding. The other day one of my toe straps broke which meant I was riding strapless. I had to alter my whole riding technique as I was so used to “pushing & pulling” that I could no longer do this, I became far less efficient on the bike. Even if I had never wore toe clips/strapped in then suddenly I was, my performance would be greatly improved IMO Question. Why is this not the case with rowing? Sir Pirate

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » October 4th, 2004, 2:26 pm

Mikebell, (Paul, correct me if I am wrong. ) there is a very strong linear relationship between meters per stroke and drive/recovery ratio. It is possible to show this mathematically, and when you use the Ergmonitor software on a C2 it is shown in practise. What does this mean? Always erging 10MPS leads to a constant drive/recovery ratio thus to a fixed rhytm, (almost) independant of pace, drive length, etc The theory behind the 10MPS idea is that your body and brain get used to this drive/recovery ratio and that it helps to keep efficient technique at race pace when you are used to the same ratio at lower paces during training. Why 10 meters and not a little more or less? The most efficient drive/recovery ratio is hard to find out and it may differ from person to person. For most people it is close to the ratio that corresponds to 10 MPS. Holding on to exectly 10 MPS has the advantage that it is easy to check from stroke to stroke using the PM2. How about on-water rowing? No diffference, I think, apart from the fact that it is impossible to check with some accuracy how many meters you travel for each stroke (e.g. head/tail wind). Note that the 10MPS dogma only cares about training. Most people do somewhat less per stroke during racing, especially during the last phase of a race ("trading rate for pace"). Tom

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » October 4th, 2004, 3:40 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Mikebell @ Oct 5 2004, 05:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Erging at low drag, low stroke rate, strapless </td></tr></table> Hi Mike, no expert here at all but I am going thru a phase of training at lower rates. lower df (110df) and strapless the reasons for me are: Lower rates: - allows me to concentrate on the technique of the stroke and each component of it; legs, back and arms in their correct sequence and correlation in both the drive and the recovery Lower Drag: - I have found that the lower drag has the natural consequence of the wheel not slowing down so much on the recovery (to state the obvious) and this means that to achieve my desired pace I have to 'drive' quicker with my legs at the start to 'pick' up the wheel 9 I am certainly feeling it in the quads which is good). This I hope will become ingrained and later as rates pick up more of my speed and power will come from my legs. A higher drag for me means a slower beginning to the drive and as a consequence pace comes from muscleing the 2nd half of the stroke with the upper body ...ok for some maybe but not ideal for many and somewhat limiting I believe. Strapless: - I am doing this strapless again as an attempt to improve my technique. Like many when I started I used the straps to stop me going off the back of the erg and to pull me back to the front. Now (and I can only really manage this up to spm rates of about 26/27) I stop my self from going off the back by a strong finish with my hands (not to much lean) and get my self back on the recovery by getting my hands away quickly forward and following them with my body rotating I hope at the hips ... this gives me forward momentum. I used to really dig my heels in and pull myself forward using my hamstrings and while there is still some of this it is not so evident. An erg is different to a boat in that it is stationry and has no forward momentum, a boat 'moves' under the rower and assists in the recovery (having never rowed on water this is an assumption) Hope this makes sense and others can add or correct. - George

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » October 4th, 2004, 3:42 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Sir Pirate @ Oct 4 2004, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Can I stir it up a bit please? I have a question on Strapless rowing. I have never seen the point in rowing strapless. Example. I ride my bike 25miles a day. I have toe straps and strap my feet in whilst riding. The other day one of my toe straps broke which meant I was riding strapless. I had to alter my whole riding technique as I was so used to “pushing & pulling” that I could no longer do this, I became far less efficient on the bike. Even if I had never wore toe clips/strapped in then suddenly I was, my performance would be greatly improved IMO Question. Why is this not the case with rowing? Sir Pirate  </td></tr></table> Excellent question, adn now maybe we can get to some serious discussion of it. First of all cycling is a far more constant activity than a rowing stroke, and since the cranks are connected to eachother both the pushing and pulling work together to produce positive power input for the system. Your body weight is not being thrown about to any great extent when cycling, though while hill climbing it might be side to side. OTOH - When on the Erg (or in a boat, but it's impossible to feel it there) your bodyweight is moved quite aggressively along the line of travel, having a balanced effect on the drive (if you don't hit the straps hard at the finish). The recovery is another matter, if you pull your body quickly up the slide, the first thing that has to happen is bringing your body to a stop and then accelerate it up to enough speed to catch the flywheel so that energy can be put into the flywheel. While you will be moving from point x to point y, it can be done in different ways. One way will have you stopping yourself quickly and then getting on the flywheel, the other will have you stopping slowly and getting on the flywheel. In the first method, you reach peak pressure on your feet a long time before on the handle and the Erg does not recognize your effort (a boat does, by slowing down). You will also begin to dig into O2 debt more quickly due to this higher peak pressure being hit. Basically, Strapless Erging teaches you to control your movements so that they are economical. Strapping up will generally give you a bit of a boost for what seems like the same perceived effort, however this is due to the ease at which you will be coming up the slide and trading a bit of rate for pace. There is no way that strapping up allows you to drive any harder, and that is the only part of the stroke that adds energy to the flywheel, any benefit of strapping in is from increasing SR, great for racing, not so hot for training. Cheers, Paul Smith

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » October 4th, 2004, 3:53 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Sir Pirate @ Oct 5 2004, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I became far less efficient on the bike.  </td></tr></table> Hi Pirate, I think the analogy you use on the surface looks valid but shows up a major difference between the two sports. In cycling you have the opportunity to apply force and in fact should with good technique through 360 degrees of the rotation (hence I was never very good) -- this is the most efficient way to go fast and allows you to 'spin' at higher rates rather than just mashing the pedals on the down stroke. In erging the 'recovery' phase of the stroke adds nothing to your speed so any unnecessary use of energy 'transferred' to the straps is wasted. I dont believe there is any way to go 'real quick' and higher spm on an erg without straps but - if at lower rates you can get away without using them then it is teaching you not to rely on them excessively to either halt your drive or to be an anchor against which you 'pull' yourself back on the recovery. I am sure you have seen people at the gym with poor technique spending half their time every 10th stroke tightening up the straps ... that was me to at the beginning but rowing strapless (still a long way to go) has seen the problem almost dissapear and most of my energy go onto going faster - George

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » October 4th, 2004, 3:56 pm

ps - Paul S types faster than me so 'what he said to'

[old] gw1 · Post by **[old] gw1** » October 4th, 2004, 5:22 pm

For what its worth, as a contribution to this topic, over the last 30 weeks or so I have gradually lowered my drag for 500 - 2000m effort pieces from 150's down to 128. Although i did try 120 with less success. Also I have worked very hard on maintaining as high as possible mps through strapless sets of 12 x 500m intervals at 20spm while getting my effort pieces down to 1:40 / 500m. This was all done as part my off water preperation for the World Surfboat Titles in Italy. As a result my 500m sprint times improved to the lowest they have been in 10 years, 1:18.2. For me the numbers are a guildline for my peaking program for my next race. I am passing them on in case they may contribute to the constructive element of this thread. Best Gary

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » October 4th, 2004, 5:22 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (tomhz @ Oct 4 2004, 11:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> there is a very strong linear relationship between meters per stroke and drive/recovery ratio. For most people it is close to the ratio that corresponds to 10 MPS.  </td></tr></table> Eskild Ebbesen at 8.0 meters per stroke, and Pavel Shurmei at 9.7 meters per stroke, have the same drive to stroke ratio of 43.5%. Thus the ratio is NOT a strong relationship with any given meters per stroke. Rather the ratio depends on the rower's height, weight, torso and arm length, timing, rhythm, strength and fitness. The meters per stroke is a RESULT of that ratio, not the other way around.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » October 4th, 2004, 5:24 pm

Gary, Sounds great. Best regards at the World Surfboat Titles and let us know how you do.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » October 4th, 2004, 5:26 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (PaulS @ Oct 4 2004, 04:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'm not exactly the type to be a self-agrandizing blow hard, but I'm also not going to let an idiot get away with a bunch of crap.  </td></tr></table> Apparently your efforts are not working very well since you're still posting your usual rubbish that has nothing to do with either good rowing or intelligence. However keep trying as any little gains you can make I am sure will be cherished by Jim and the rest of us so good luck!

[old] JimR · Post by **[old] JimR** » October 4th, 2004, 5:46 pm

John - Don't even go there JimR

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » October 4th, 2004, 7:41 pm

Jeez John you just wont let it go .... Paul voices an opinion and at least he read what the rest of us said about your 'spat' and responded and moved on, try it. He may be right and he may be wrong in his views 'for me, my physiology, my style' but that is for me to decide and I will through analysis myself after giving it a fair go - I dont need you to continually berate him to ensure I am not deluded by his 'wiley ways' after all he has nothing to gain and only offers his advice with the best intentions I am sure, and as for using Ebbensen and Shurmei continually as examples they are hardly the norm ... Ebbensen for one is only about 3 inches shorter than me and over 30kg lighter so I for one am hardly going to emulate him. - George

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