Catch And Resistance

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » September 29th, 2004, 3:47 am

Giniajim, That slow 8" pull I've heard about before, not exactly that, but the idea of having the flywheel spinn just fast enough to not be registerd as a false start. A series of small pulls wih just the hands keeping the wheel spinning during the countdown might give you a small headstart. At some competitions at least the referee says that the wheels should be still before start. No "cheating" aloud. If you look at Eskild Ebbesen starting in his WR attempt at <a href='http://look-at-it.com/ee-worldrecord.asp' target='_blank'>http://look-at-it.com/ee-worldrecord.asp</a> you see him doing half slide strokes in the beginning wich means it is probably a good idea.

[old] giniajim · Post by **[old] giniajim** » September 29th, 2004, 7:24 am

Back in my rowing days, the half-stroke was started at half-slide and the idea was to get the boat moving quickly. In erg competition, I agree that the wheel should be still (haven't looked closely, how hard is it to tell whether its moving or not?). Our starts were half-stroke, 3/4, full, followed by a "big ten". We toyed around with other schemes, but that seemed about as good as any. On the C2, it seems pretty natural.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 29th, 2004, 11:52 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 26 2004, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Why doesn't it work for you then?  </td></tr></table> Who says it doesn't? You? That's a laugh! As for your saying 10PS is easier, sept 25 4:43 am, John Rupp "Training at 10 and 12 mps *feels* much easier for me too. That's because it *is* much easier. " Do you really want to get batted about again? With your defamatory remarks it would appear so. You are proving that you know just a bit less than nothing about that which you are speaking. Cheating yourself out of good training is one thing, but making recomendations that may cause others to be cheated is unforgivable. BTW - Seems there were some people that came forward due to your challenge of my methods, are you going to have anyone step up on your behalf? Mr. "Life Coach"? - Paul Smith

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 29th, 2004, 3:59 pm

In Paul Smith's previous message he quoted me as saying, "he says that he can pull the same paces at S10PS more easily than when strapped up and flailing about at 8mps, otherwise his PB's would be done S10PS (because "it's so much easier to go faster")." I did not say such a thing. And it is not true. Now Paul pulls a quotation where I said "Training at 10 and 12 mps *feels* much easier for me too. That's because it *is* much easier." Notice I said *feels* much easier, but nowhere did I say "can pull the same paces at Paul's sloppy 10 mps more easily". And I did not say because "it's so much easier to go faster". Those statements are also false. Paul you have misquoted me, the same that you misquoted Eskild Ebbesen, saying he rows at 10 mps when in reality he rows at 8 mps. Do you still want to say that he rows 10 mps? I have the videotape that shows otherwise. Eskild Ebbesen rows at 8 mps, not 10 mps. As to the people you say who stepped forward, none of them have tested your method. And you have not tested your method. However I *have* tested your method. Also you take offense and want to "slap down" anyone who looks at your method objectively. At least you would get more of a workout that way.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 29th, 2004, 8:41 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 29 2004, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I did not say such a thing. And it is not true. As to the people you say who stepped forward, none of them have tested your method. And you have not tested your method. However I *have* tested your method.  </td></tr></table> You are not a Duck, you are a loon... I did not quote you inaccurately, cut and paste doesn't lie. Or maybe it depends on what the definition of "is" is. However, I have never said that EE rows at 10mps all the time, or even part of the time, he does Erg at about 8mps when doing a 2k for time, but that's a very small part of his Erging activities for sure. You have not tested anything, as it actually requires some form of control and consistency, both of which you have none. You have proved that many times already and I'm sure will continue in the future. Why don't you give some genuine training a try and then maybe you will improve, instead of just being exactly where you were 4 years ago. - Paul Smith PS - Where is a "QUACK" when you need one?

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » September 29th, 2004, 8:52 pm

Count me in as another person who has found rowing strapless and 10mps to have really improved my times and my technique on the erg. I trained almost exclusively strapless 10mps last year for about 9 months and set PBs in every distance I tried. I have been recovering from a shoulder injury for the last 6 months, so the only rowing I have done this summer has been easy HR restricted rows, but am looking forward to getting into some harder stuff soon. As I understand it and came to appreciate the idea, the core insight of 10mps is to stay in ratio for all of your rowing. That the suggested ratio is 10 may be a coincidence, but if you list the stroke rates and paces it has a symmetry to it as well. You avoid the temptation to let your SR drift upward during a row. You only increase your SR in ratio to also increasing your pace, etc. I like it a lot. I think I have this right: 10 MPS= Pace Rate 2:20 21 2:15 22 2:10 23 2:05 24 2:00 25 1:55 26 1:50 27 1:45 29 1:40 30 1:35 32

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 29th, 2004, 9:22 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (michaelb @ Sep 30 2004, 12:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Count me in as another person who has found rowing strapless and 10mps to have really improved my times and my technique on the erg. I trained almost exclusively strapless 10mps last year for about 9 months and set PBs in every distance I tried.  </td></tr></table> Michael, I think you just don't understand. It doesn't matter that you changed your training to S10PS and then beat all of your PB's. In "Bizzarro World" that means that you didn't really change your training, and no PB's were broken. Take is easy on the shoulder recovery, "do it once or do it over". BTW - Yes, you have it exactly right! (In my world anyway) Erg on, Paul Smith

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 29th, 2004, 9:23 pm

Paul, My times in summer 2002 compared to now and the improvements are as follows: 500m - 1:41.8 5k - 20:51.9 10k - 42:08.9 h/m - 1:35:49.9 My current times below show the following improvements; 500m - 2.2 seconds 5k - 1 minute 54.5 seconds 10k - 3 minutes 24.2 seconds h/m - 13 minutes 1 second How much have you improved in the last 2 years?

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 29th, 2004, 9:30 pm

John says: "Very tall rowers with long torsos and long arms, and greater weight, can row higher ratios at 10 mps and less, than can lighter shorter rowers, whereas lightweights tend more to rowing at 8 mps and less." Paul says: "Everyone should row at 10 mps" "The ratio is the same for everyone at 10 mps"

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 30th, 2004, 7:44 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 30 2004, 01:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> John says: "Very tall rowers with long torsos and long arms, and greater weight, can row higher ratios at 10 mps and less, than can lighter shorter rowers, whereas lightweights tend more to rowing at 8 mps and less." Paul says: "Everyone should row at 10 mps" "The ratio is the same for everyone at 10 mps"  </td></tr></table> Now, if you are going to say what I said, get it right. Paul Says: "All Rowers should train on the Erg S10PS, to fix the stroke ratio." (They can test at whatever rate they decide.) Apparently you are now changing your story about EE, he is not exactly short and you say that he Ergs at 8mps, but being "tall" would mean that he should Erg at 10mps? Which is it, little man? Maybe when you said S10PS "is" easier, you were indicating that you could only achieve slower paces with it, but since that's not what you said I'm being overly kind trying ot make sense of your rantings. Maybe you can clear that up. Haven't done a 5k in a long time but from 7/16/2001 to 4/30/2003 my time for than improved by 2:15, still pitiful though. Been on the water and not on the Erg for quite a while now, oops! - Paul Smith

[old] travisshue · Post by **[old] travisshue** » September 30th, 2004, 9:28 am

My Comfortable rowing stroke is 18spm at 2:05/500m(13.22m/stroke). My best 2k was set at 25spm at 1:57.5/500m(10.25m/stroke). My questions is how will following a 10m/stroke ratio plan help me. Will it allow me to carry 10m/stroke at say 35 spm? Max spm right now is 28. Thanks

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 30th, 2004, 11:26 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (travisshue @ Sep 30 2004, 01:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> My Comfortable rowing stroke is 18spm at 2:05/500m(13.22m/stroke). My best 2k was set at 25spm at 1:57.5/500m(10.25m/stroke). My questions is how will following a 10m/stroke ratio plan help me. Will it allow me to carry 10m/stroke at say 35 spm? Max spm right now is 28. Thanks  </td></tr></table> I'm having to make my best guess, not having seen you on the Erg, but I'd say that S10PS would surely help you work out the pausing that is likely in your current stroke, as well as get you focused on using your legs much more effectively to generate power. It's certainly possible to maintain many bad habits while using S10PS, so if you have a competent coach to take a look at your stroke and describe/demonstrate the proper technique, it would be helpful. You mention "comfortable rowing stroke", sorry, effective training is not going to be comfortable, though recovery rows are typically comfortable by definition. - Paul Smith

[old] travisshue · Post by **[old] travisshue** » September 30th, 2004, 1:41 pm

Your right about the pausing, there is a slight pause at the end of the drive before starting recovery when I row at 18spm, I thought that was how your suppose to do a slow rating row. However, there is no pause(consciously) at 25 spm. Comfort zone and hard zone arent seperated by much, as my splits show. Before my Heart rate moniter died I could comfotably jog at 185-190bpm, whereas sprinting raised it only 3 bpm to 193. I think that is a general sign of being out of aerobic shape. Erging is the first consistent aerobic excercise Ive ever done. Maybe you guys could share your heart rates etc.. So I can see where I stand, my waking heart rate is 60-65 and sitting around its about 90. Max is 193. Theoretical max is 196. Im 24. Just took my sitting around heart rate and its 64, perhaps the erging is helping. I'll have to take my waking heart rate sometime soon.

[old] travisshue · Post by **[old] travisshue** » September 30th, 2004, 1:51 pm

And by comfortable I was refering to what I did my last 5k at. Is it resonable to assume that the rowing must be at a more comfortable pace for 5k than for 500m or 1k? If that wasn't the case then 5k pace would match sprint pace.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 30th, 2004, 4:17 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (PaulS @ Sep 30 2004, 04:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul Says: "All Rowers should train on the Erg S10PS, to fix the stroke ratio." (They can test at whatever rate they decide.)  </td></tr></table> Pavel Shurmei rowed 9.7 mps at the 2004 Crash B's and Eskild Ebbesen rowed at 8 mps. You are saying they should both train at 10 mps. This again points out the fallacy in your thinking. Surely if Ebbesen "should" train at 10 mps, to "fix" his ratio, then Shurmei should train at 12.1 mps! However, long time WORLD RECORD HOLDER Eskild Ebbesen's ratio is already "fixed"! This is apparent because, even though Shurmei's rate at the Crash B's was 35 spm and Ebbesen's was 41.3, they both had the SAME EXACT RATIO of 43.5% (drive % of stroke). Thus changing Ebbesen's mps would mess up his ratio. Long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen is 6'2 and rows at 8 meters per stroke. Additionally, his 4x won the Gold medal at the 2004 Athens Olympics, maintaining a rating of 39 spm.