Catch And Resistance

[old] travisshue · Post by **[old] travisshue** » September 22nd, 2004, 7:11 am

When catching the wheel, should there be immediate resistance on the handle? Or do you have to "take up the slack"? I ask because theres about 6 inches of slack when I row, and I dont think this can be right because the erg is supposed to mimic a boat? Im rowing on a model B with the chain on the big sprocket and the shutter closed, the conversion chart says this is equivelent to a 3.5 setting on a Model C? Thanks for the help

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » September 22nd, 2004, 8:11 am

At the very least you have to catch up with the flywheel, plus any slack in the freewheel. Our slow acceleration and the typical consequent soggy erg catch are determined by the fact that we have to move our own weight (me 85kg for example) rather than the boat (a 1x is about 15 kg). 6" is good anyway, takes me a lot more than that. The low drag factors and high ratings that are the fashion here don't help in this and lead to a style that has nothing to do with rowing or sculling anyway. If it's a problem, try the slides, or pull at df 150, 18-20. Or scull..

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » September 22nd, 2004, 5:03 pm

you have to consider, that like a boat, the wheel is moving. The lighter the resistence the smaller, the lighter your "boat" is. If you have ever rowed a single you will notice that there is significantly less resistence at the catch than in an 8. Therefore part of the skill of the single is being able to accelerate the boat smoothly and quickly. There for it is benficial to be able to accelerate QUICK, and most importantly with your legs and continue to accelerate into the finish. So although it may seem light, its good for rowing technique. A highly underated skill.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 22nd, 2004, 5:27 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jamesg @ Sep 22 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The low drag factors and high ratings that are the fashion here don't help in this and lead to a style that has nothing to do with rowing or sculling anyway.  </td></tr></table> You are right about the high ratings, and perhaps you are refering to unusually low DF's used by people who aren't very fast anyway. But the Low range of DF's (~100-110) have plently to do with rowing and sculling, and training how to get caught up quickly at the catch. You've mentioned that it takes you more than 6" to get the catch, some Low DF training might help you out considerably in improving that. As well as strapless and dare I suggest 10 meters per Stroke (S10PS). If you don't like the suggestion, don't do it, but I have too many rowers developed and improved by using just that, so attempting an argument in another direction would be foolish. - Paul Smith

[old] travisshue · Post by **[old] travisshue** » September 22nd, 2004, 8:33 pm

Could you explain the 10meters per stroke theory? According to my figuring, Im rowing 10.33-12.62 meters per stroke, thats at 18-22spm w/2:10 500m split. Thanks

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » September 22nd, 2004, 8:56 pm

Can you name one rower who you have developed? I'm sure there must be 100's of them but one would suffice.

[old] Bill · Post by **[old] Bill** » September 22nd, 2004, 10:38 pm

John, I have only used an erg, not a boat, and so I am not a rower. However I believe that my erg scores have had enormous benefit from following Paul S advice on the strapless, 10mps and low DF issues. Got a big improvement in 5000m pb recently (strapped in 9.somethimg mps) however this was achieved after training strapless and 10mps at low drag factors. Was quite happy about this. Bill

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » September 23rd, 2004, 1:40 am

PS I usually erg at 11 to 12 m per stroke, rating 20-22 on DF 130-135. This covers my UT1 and 2 bands. In a 1x I need 650 strokes to go 8-9km on dead water, pulling intervals of 25 - 30 strokes before collapse. Luckily the boat drifts 50m or more between bits, so the average looks like 10m/stroke. On water the catch is no problem, it's anything but soggy with the hatchets. I'm pulling well when over the backstay. Dropping to 10m/stroke on the erg however makes me feel very rushed - would have to rate 25 to do 2:00, 21-23 is much more like rowing or sculling. I'm 188cm, 85kg, 64y. Straps or not I find makes no difference, except for encouraging a slightly harder arm pull at the finish to stop travel. Can get the same effect by relaxing the legs just before they straighten, but this takes concentration.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » September 23rd, 2004, 5:15 am

Travis, I am someone who has recently dropped my drag from 130 down to 110 precisely for the purpose of training myself to be quicker at the catch and remove this 'slack'. As I understand it, if I want to maximise my ability then I dont want to waste any time or stroke length trying to catch up to the 'wheel', and I have found this a great way to improve my leg speed which when I get back up to a higher drag and rating will produce a positive outcome. - George

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » September 23rd, 2004, 5:45 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>On water the catch is no problem, it's anything but soggy with the hatchets. </td></tr></table> IMHO Perhaps you feel the catch is immediate in the boat, that suggests that your boat speed is low. Specifically, if that is excessively so at the catch, then there are a number of faults possible: -it is because you are too fast with the slide at the end of the recovery -not fully in position with your back leaned forward -not beeing quick enough getting oars in to the water and start driving Once you get all of the above components working, then you will maintain more boat speed at the catch and have more difficulty cathing the water. That's when low DF will help you. A heavy catch could also be because of going too far on the slide exceeding vertical shins. Sorry, I might be way off here, but that's what springs to my mind when I hear someone feeling the catch is imediate and heavy (df 150 you say).

[old] Exrook · Post by **[old] Exrook** » September 23rd, 2004, 10:40 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 22 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Can you name one rower who you have developed? I'm sure there must be 100's of them but one would suffice. </td></tr></table> Try <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... #entry4992' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... br> for another example of someone who has benefited from Paul's coaching.

[old] Bayko · Post by **[old] Bayko** » September 23rd, 2004, 11:44 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 23 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Can you name one rower who you have developed? I'm sure there must be 100's of them but one would suffice. </td></tr></table> O.K., I get it now. Like Clark Kent and Superman, John Rupp and Paul Smith are the same person . Has anyone ever seen the two of them in the same place at the same time? This quote from the alleged John Rupp is probably just a shameless-fishing-for-compliments from Paul Smith. It was said that when Edgar Allen Poe was a magazine editor that he would fabricate controversial Letters To The Editor in order to increase readership interest. Here we probably have a similar clever ploy. "John Rupp" exists only to make Paul Smith look good! Rick Oh, by the way. You can add me to the list of people who feel that they have benefitted from PaulS's advice (coaching).

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 23rd, 2004, 11:59 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Bayko @ Sep 23 2004, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> O.K., I get it now. Like Clark Kent and Superman, John Rupp and Paul Smith are the same person . Has anyone ever seen the two of them in the same place at the same time?  </td></tr></table> All that has to be done is to look at the respective profiles where it's easy to see that JR is quite a handsome fellow and PaulS, well, is somewhat challenged in that department, shall we just say he has a helluva personality? - Paul Smith PS - Thanks to each of you who have stepped forward, I'm humbled by your compliments, but now of course JR is going to think you are all just "me" using different aliases. Where is Truth Pointer Outer (AKA - "runt put here to riot" [all the same letters, check it out.]) anyway? LOL

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 23rd, 2004, 12:28 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jamesg @ Sep 23 2004, 05:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Dropping to 10m/stroke on the erg however makes me feel very rushed - would have to rate 25 to do 2:00, 21-23 is much more like rowing or sculling. I'm 188cm, 85kg, 64y.  </td></tr></table> It takes the concentration you mention to not feel (or look) rushed. I'll bet you do the same rushing on teh water and because you can't "feel" it there, just absorb the consequences of the motion (severe check and large system velocity changes). The movements have got to be trained to be used later. That's why the USA 8+ can row along at a 38 and it doesn't looks rushed at all (but the 42 looked a bit rushed, and didn't do them much good as it were). However all you are doing at 12m/stroke is pulling much harder when Erging slowly than you need to, and then when you start to pick the pace up on the erg you will slip to under 10m/stroke (Trading rate for pace) without really producing any more force on the handle. It's all about training a ratio into your muscles so it can be used on the water. By fixing the meters/stroke at some value, I really don't care which, though 10 seems to be the center of the range for average Ergers. Without fixing it somewhere you have no way of differentiating one pace from another for true workload. My wife has never used straps on the Erg in training and has learned to be very smooth into the release. While the "extra tug" you describe may happen for a while, this will tire quickly and the Rower will be forced to learn a better method (balanced finish) to continue effectively. You probably coast a fair bit farther than 50m if busting your hump for 25-30 strokes, which were probably done at something less than 10m/stroke. What is your rate and pace during these intervals? Also, the connection you are feeling at the catch may or may not be a good catch, as you will only feel anything at all once you feel it, the boat could come to a nearly complete stop (if rowing in badly) and you would feel a lot of pressure as your bring everything back up to speed. I'm not saying you are doing that, but if you have access to some Macon blades and it makes no difference to feel or speed to use them, then you can be confident in your bladework. - Paul Smith

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » September 23rd, 2004, 12:41 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Sep 23 2004, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Can you name one rower who you have developed? I'm sure there must be 100's of them but one would suffice.  </td></tr></table> No, client confidentiality does not allow that. But it appears some of them don't mind outing themselves. Let's just say there are some, that if they came to a sudden stop, it would be very messy for you. - Paul Smith

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