Weight Training

[old] Sentinal93 · Post by **[old] Sentinal93** » June 22nd, 2004, 10:59 am

Hey everyone, i row for the university at Albany, Albany, New York. Since this is the summer months and there is no organized training, i've been recently looking into ways to improve my erg scores. Since i've recently joined a gym that has a large amount of weights and machines, i've been curious as to the benefits of weight training. First of all, is it better to do a speed circut that is timed and builds your heart rate or do strength training with a lot of weight? Also, what lifting exercises do people find work best for erging? For that matter, is it beneficial to even spend any decent amount of time weight training? -Eric

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » July 13th, 2004, 4:14 pm

Hello! I think that, for rowers, it's better to work with heavy loads/4-10 reps, mainly (65-90% of max. strength), assuming that if you work between 65-80% you're working resistance with gains in muscle mass, and above that you're working maximal strength with less gains in muscle mass. Personally, I think it's nice to do the two kinds of workout, mostly to introduce some variety on training. But, if I had to choose one, I'd choose the second (over 80%), because, although it's more difficult, you work a lot your anaerobic power, after all, the best contribute that weight training gives to rowers (although they can also train this item on their boats or ergos). On the other hand, in rowing, more volume with less strength loses to more strength/lower volume. AM

[old] TomR/the elder · Post by **[old] TomR/the elder** » July 14th, 2004, 9:01 am

You might want to have a look at the Training Guide on the UK site, which has several different weight programs specifically for rowers. Tom Rawls

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » July 15th, 2004, 9:39 am

S93, When I look down a 2k course, one of the things I think is that even not being very strong, at 63, I'm far too strong for my own good. I can exhaust myself in 20 strokes. What will get me to the far end is going slow, not fast. What I need is endurance, tactics, ability, not strength. How can you use that extra strength if you've not increased your CV capacity? How much weight can a weightlifter lift, if he has to lift it 200 times, once every 2 seconds? Probably less than you. So even if (and maybe because) you're twenty, I'm inclined to think strength is the least of your needs. What you want is endurance and technique and keeping the brain working and the blade in and the crew together even under stress - moving the boat whatever. When you race you don't know the competition, what the weather will be like, maybe you've never even seen the course or the boat, but you have to be ready. You also need hard hands and rear. Ergs and the like are fine for endurance. Maybe for coaches too, they think they see interesting numbers and they can stand near you and shout. So if you have any doubts and want to come ashore, don't fall into temptation. The oarsman's place is wet. Doing anything else is time lost for the real job. If you can't get afloat even in a 1x, it's far better to go for a 20 mile walk up and down hill or swim a mile or two or kayak ten rather than stick in a gym.

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 15th, 2004, 10:06 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (jamesg @ Jul 15 2004, 08:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> So if you have any doubts and want to come ashore, don't fall into temptation. The oarsman's place is wet. Doing anything else is time lost for the real job. If you can't get afloat even in a 1x, it's far better to go for a 20 mile walk up and down hill or swim a mile or two or kayak ten rather than stick in a gym.  </td></tr></table> I disagree completely. I was a personal trainer when I was in college (have a degree in Exercise Physiology as well), and know the benefits of hitting the weights. I trained an Olympic Kayaker (Dave Turner), amongst several other world class athletes, and the weight training definitely made a difference in their performance. I can say without a doubt that my times wouldn't be were they are if it weren't for the weights (current 2k pb 5:47.8). I also know several of our (USA) Olympic rowers, and they all train with weights. Not getting into the weight room is an old school way of thought. Get in there. Put in the time. Mesh the weights with the erg training. You'll be surprised at how much stronger and faster you are come this fall. Dwayne

[old] Dickie · Post by **[old] Dickie** » July 15th, 2004, 10:12 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (remador @ Jul 13 2004, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I think that, for rowers, it's better to work with heavy loads/4-10 reps, mainly (65-90% of max. strength), assuming that if you work between 65-80% you're working resistance with gains in muscle mass, and above that you're working maximal strength with less gains in muscle mass.  </td></tr></table> I have spent the better part of 30 years in the gym, from 12 to 42, pushing weights for size and mostly strength. While I did not have the genes to make me a world or national contender, I could hold my own on the local level. I can not disagree with you more on the value of weightlifting for rowers. Jamesg is right when he says 'How much weight can a weightlifter lift, if he has to lift it 200 times, once every 2 seconds'. I rowed for Worcester Polytech when I was a Freshman in College, I was the strongest Heavyweight on the team and lightweights were faster on both the water and the erg. I could pull a few mighty strokes and had to rest. If you feel you must lift to get faster, then concentrate on very high reps and very low weight. Our coach in college had us use the leg Press machine with no more than 100 pounds with the goal of doing 200 repititions in 1 set. We would do seated rows with 40 pounds, again for 200 reps.

[old] Karl1234 · Post by **[old] Karl1234** » July 15th, 2004, 1:10 pm

I don't think that anyone here really disagrees. What James is saying is that what he lacks is endurance, not strength. What Dickie is saying is that all of his bench pressing didn't help him compared to those little guys who spent lots of time pulling.What dadams is saying is that olympic athletes and those few who pull under 6 minutes on the 2k are all lifting weights. Doesn't sound like any contradiction. I personally am looking to bring my 2k from the 6:40's to under 6:30. Will I lift a lot of weights? No, because I am 100% sure that erging is what will do that for me. Call me in a coupleof years when I am trying to get from 6:14 to 6:09.9, and yes I will be looking at weights to take me that extra bit. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> For that matter, is it beneficial to even spend any decent amount of time weight training? </td></tr></table> Your other questions I can't answer. This one i would say depends on how long you have been rowing, your current fitness, what your goals are, etc. Once you make that clear, the olympic trainers will step in, or, if you relate to them more, the 40 year old women. Everyone answering your post is coming from somewhere else.

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » July 15th, 2004, 5:25 pm

I think I'm with Dwayne on this one. I am of the opinion that weight training in combination with erging is unmatched as a weight loss tool. I think it is very adviseable for the newbie erg-jockey who needs to lose weight in order to unlock his/her max potential for speed vis-a-vis the erg. I'm convinced that to reach your maximum potential on the erg you have to not only be superbly conditioned (via training on the erg) but you also have to be strong as an ox and lean as hell, to boot. Now, we can debate all we want about how the best way to lean out is, but I think that for the initial weight loss phase, weight training is the best defense we have against excessive muscle catabolism as we lose the fat. We have to face the fact that most new rowers don't have the fitness to do the highly intense workouts necessary to shed a lot of body fat but retain/build muscle due to the hormonal effects of hard-core erg pieces. Therefore, the bulk of their workouts will long mid-range intensity S.S. pieces which will lean you out but you will also sacrifice a lot of valuable muscle mass in the process. So I think weights with erg is good for the beginner, but once you reach your target weight/body fat percentage then the bulk of your training has to be on the erg if you ever want to be fast. Still, you should at least throw in a day or two of heavy weight maintenance work in with your erg training in order to insure that your top-end strength doesn't start to disappear. I think we can argue whether this is useful or not, but I tend to believe that when the chips are down and its gut check time for that final 500m the stronger rower will usually win.

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » July 15th, 2004, 5:26 pm

One more thing Dwayne: would you be willing to share your weight routine? I'm curious to see how you set it up. Thanks, D

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 15th, 2004, 5:43 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (DIESEL @ Jul 15 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> One more thing Dwayne: would you be willing to share your weight routine? I'm curious to see how you set it up. Thanks, D  </td></tr></table> I hit the weights five times a week. I rotate Chest/Shoudlers, Back/Arms, Legs/Calves. Abs get done four times a week. With the muscle groups that don't have a direct effect on my erging/rowing (i.e. chest, triceps), I train these to help keep a overall ascetic appearance. Also to help maintain balance. With muscle groups that have a direct effect on my erging/rowing (i.e. Back, Shoudlers, Biceps, Legs, Calves), I train them as close to sport specific as I can. For example, there isn't any real reason for me to do squats (besides, my lower back doesn't like them very much), so I do leg press and sissy squats instead. That's just an example, but you get the idea. Another thing I believe heavily in, is supplements. I have a whole cocktail of things that I take to help maintain, and to prevent muscle loss. I DO NOT believe in synthetic anabolics at all!!! Stay away from them at all costs!!!!!!!!!! Hope this helps. Please let me know if you want more details. Dwayne

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » July 15th, 2004, 10:45 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Dwayne)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I hit the weights five times a week. I rotate Chest/Shoudlers, Back/Arms, Legs/Calves. Abs get done four times a week. </td></tr></table> What's your routine like? Exercise selection? Rep Ranges ? This is what I use when creating my routines Chest - Bench, Incline Bench, DB Flat, Incline Back - BB Rows, T-Bars, Pull ups (shoulder width grip), Deads, Pulldowns , Seated Rows Delts - Shrugs, Rack Shrugs, Military Press, Side Raises , Rear Raises, Clean and Jerk Bis - Barbell Curls, DB Curls Tris - Close grip bench, Skulls, Tri Pressdowns Legs - Close-stance sculler squats, Stiff Leg Deads, Barbell Lunges Calves - Raises, Seated Raises Abs - weighted crunches on roman chair (2x week) Divided over 4 days - switch up the routine every 4 weeks and take a week off lifting every 9th week. I usually do legs on Saturday so I can rest on Sunday and it doesn't affect my erging that much. Rep range : 4-8 (except sculler squats, I normally do 15-20 reps) Worksets: 8 total for legs, chest, back 4-6 for delts, tris, and bis - I keep the volume low but the intensity high - I find that if I go too long on the weights I feel it on the erg. Lately I've been doing 4 sessions with weights and 8 on the erg a week. I'm trying to lean out as much as possible. Supplements: EAS Myoplex Deluxe CLA Vitamins B, C, Natural E, ZMA Flax Oil (Udo's Choice) Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey How about you? What's your erg/iron split like ? Have you always trained this way? (i.e. is this the kind of training that got you that obscene 2k score? LOL ) Have you messed with r- Alpha Lipoic Acid? If so, thoughts? Thanks, D

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » July 16th, 2004, 8:18 am

Answer to Fred Dickie: I think I might not have explained myself quite well. In fact, I just sayd what I did because I think that weight training is good only as a complement to rowing. In other words, sports-specific strength, muscular resistance and neuromuscular adaption to rowing, etc. should be trained while rowing. So, weight training is good to some specific purposes, such as increasing maximal strength - which, I argue, may be increased by rowing, also, although in some less specific way (without doing weight training, my leg press max increased, in 4 months, about 175%)... About the kind of training you mentioned, many rep's and low weight, I think it's better do it on water, tanks, or erg's, or else, you're getting fatigued without improvement on techique or cv endurance. Keep rowing, AM

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 16th, 2004, 9:40 am

Diesel, So many questions. Holy Cow!!! Exercise selection: I don't have a set routine. It will depend alot on how I feel and gym conditions (how crowded it is). But basically, I'll do three to four exercises per body part, three to four sets, six to fifteen reps. One thing I want to mention on exercises: Bench rows - Hate them!!! I believe (I don't have any data on this) that they are one of the major causes of rib injuries in rowers. All you young rowers out there. Find something else to do. Seated rows, dumbell rows, etc. Erg/iron split: I erg/row five to six days a week. Average per day is approx. 34k. I hit the weights five days a week (Mon, Tues, Weds, Fri, Sat). Supplements: (In no particular order) Multi vitamin, post training protein/Carb drink, chromium picolinate, pyruvate, CLA, HMB, Vitamin C, Vanadyl Sulfate, RNA. Have I always trained this way: I used to be a competitive bodybuilder, so the weight training goes without saying. But yes, I've always trained like this. It's this type of training that has gotten me to my present state of conditioning. I haven't ever taken r-Alpha Lipoic Acid. Your thoughts? Hope this answers everything. Let me know if I missed something. Dwayne

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » July 16th, 2004, 11:27 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Diesel, So many questions. Holy Cow!!! </td></tr></table> Take it as a complement, Dwayne, my man. There are a lot of intelligent people on these boards and a wealth of information to absorb for someone who is interested in cranking kick-ass erg scores. Especially, if you are already a very intellectually curious pseudo-training geek like me. Seriously, though, I really appreciate the feedback. I, like you, am making the switch from a primarily bodybuilding/powerlifting based training routine.. (been doing it seriously the last five years). However, I had dabbled in rowing for a couple of years before that, what now seems eons ago. But my new gym had a couple of C's... I got back on to do some cardio.. and dammit if I wasn't hooked again !! Also, I felt the bb-ing was going TOO well. (i.e. I was getting too big! and it was murder on the joints, not to mention finding a suit that fit well! ) About your supplementation: I always thought that pyruvate, HMB, and the Vanadyl Sulfate didn't really work. I'm pretty sure that HMB and pyruvate have been throughly debunked. I know the r-ALA is supposed to shuttle the glycogen right into the muscle, and completely avoids the whole "excess carbs being stored in the liver and turning into triglycerides" - in effect it creates a buffer around the liver. I know the 'roid heads use it when they are on oral anabolics because of the buffer effect, the natural bb-ers when they are dieting down for a show - because it ensures that every bit of carbs is going into the muscle, and I know that it was originally designed for diabetics because it helps keep blood sugar levels constant. I've never actually used it, so I was wondering if you had. Maybe we should order some off the 'net and become the forum guinea pigs. Just a thought. But I think given everything I've read about it and feedback from people at gyms I've worked out at, r-ALA would be a great supp for hard-core endurance athletes as well, especially post-erg. I think it's properties make it a great recovery tool. I also think that instead of the HMB, pyruvate, and Vanadyl - you may want to try some Glutamine or other amino support formula - and of course the Natural Vitamin E, those are also great post-workout recovery supps. However, Natural E is fat soluble, so I take it at night with my teaspoon of flax oil. If you don't mind - here are some more questions: How long ago did you start rowing? How much did you weigh when you competed as a bb-er. I'm assuming you competed in the drug-free shows? Did you have to lose lean muscle mass to make a competitive weight for the erg, if so, a little detail? How much do you weigh now for erg competition ? Height? I guess I'm fishing for a range of where I should be at if want to maximize my chances to be at my fastest. Are you some sort of CV freak or did it take you years to get your erg score sub 5:50? How the hell do you cram a weight routine and 34K in a day? Do you have a regular job as well? If you can do all that in a day, and haven't dropped dead yet, my hat's off to you! I know it's a lot of questions. So don't kill yourself trying to answer them all at once! Once again, thanks for the feedback. D

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 16th, 2004, 11:51 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (DIESEL @ Jul 16 2004, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> About your supplementation: I always thought that pyruvate, HMB, and the Vanadyl Sulfate didn't really work. I'm pretty sure that HMB and pyruvate have been throughly debunked. I know the r-ALA is supposed to shuttle the glycogen right into the muscle, and completely avoids the whole "excess carbs being stored in the liver and turning into triglycerides" - in effect it creates a buffer around the liver. I know the 'roid heads use it when they are on oral anabolics because of the buffer effect, the natural bb-ers when they are dieting down for a show - because it ensures that every bit of carbs is going into the muscle, and I know that it was originally designed for diabetics because it helps keep blood sugar levels constant. I've never actually used it, so I was wondering if you had. Maybe we should order some off the 'net and become the forum guinea pigs. Just a thought. But I think given everything I've read about it and feedback from people at gyms I've worked out at, r-ALA would be a great supp for hard-core endurance athletes as well, especially post-erg. I think it's properties make it a great recovery tool. If you don't mind - here are some more questions: How long ago did you start rowing? How much did you weigh when you competed as a bb-er. I'm assuming you competed in the drug-free shows? Did you have to lose lean muscle mass to make a competitive weight for the erg, if so, a little detail? How much do you weigh now for erg competition ? Height? I guess I'm fishing for a range of where I should be at if want to maximize my chances to be at my fastest. Are you some sort of CV freak or did it take you years to get your erg score sub 5:50? How the hell do you cram a weight routine and 34K in a day? Do you have a regular job as well? If you can do all that in a day, and haven't dropped dead yet, my hat's off to you! I know it's a lot of questions. So don't kill yourself trying to answer them all at once! Once again, thanks for the feedback. D  </td></tr></table> Whether or not HMB, Vanadyl and Pyruvate have been debunked, I still feel a difference in my performance using them. In my head?? If so, then so be it. I'll do some checking on the r-ALA. As long as I don't have to give a kidney to pay for it, might as well give it a whack. I started erging about four years ago. I've been rowing for three. My weight as a competitive bb was around 230 lbs. I either needed to start with the drugs in order to stay competive, or give it up. I chose to give it up. My competitive weight and my off season weight only varied by about 10 lbs. My body weight now is anywhere between 215 and 220 lbs. If I get below 215, I'm not as fast. Oh yea, I'm 6' 3". I don't know about the CV freak part. I got into erging because I was bored with all the other cardio equipment in the gym. I worked with a guy who rowed when he was in college (U of Texas), and got some pointers from him. Before I new it, I had bettered his best 2k time (6:28). So I figured why not see how far I can take this. I erg in the morning before I come to work (I do about 15-17k). I have a regular job (work as a Product Engineer in the Semiconductor Industry). And I do the remainder when I get off in the afternoons. The big thing (and I've said this to many people), is that I don't have any kids. That seems to be the biggest factor in many peoples lives concerning training. It's just me and the fiance. Did I answer everything? Hope so. If not, let me know. Dwayne