Help On 1000m Please

[old] Big Dave · Post by **[old] Big Dave** » July 21st, 2004, 4:07 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (dadams @ Jul 21 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Big Dave @ Jul 21 2004, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Hi Dwayne, I wonder if my technique is wrong or something. When I row at level 9 or 10, I find the resistance is just about right ("comfortable" for want of a better word!). The last time I tried a lower setting (Level 6), I found I was struggling to stay on the seat. OK, I admit, I actually came off once. And I'm guessing Level 3 will be even harder.... BUT... I will try it next time I'm in the gym. I'm taller than average, (175inches), I don't know if that changes anything. And OK, dumb question of the week... what does "ERG" mean, seen as though everyone uses it Dave  </td></tr></table> Dave, Couldn't really tell you about your technique without seeing it. I'd like to know what you mean by falling off the seat. Do you mean that you're at the very back of the slide at the finish? I'm guessing if your really 175 inches tall (over 14 feet!!!), then that would be a serious issue on the erg (short for ergometer - aka ergo outside the USA). If your butt is coming off the seat during the leg drive, then yes, that would be a technique issue. That would tell me that the force that you're applying to the foot stretchers is not completely parallel to the slide (as it should be). It tells me that you have some vertical component of force during your drive. When I first started erging, I kept my damper at around 180 (8 setting). It wasn't until I was exposed to more experienced rowers/ergers, that I learned what I was doing was actually hurting my performance. By lowering the damper setting from 8 to 3 (I now use a 2'ish setting) my 2k pb dropped from a 6:03 to a 5:47.8. The lower damper setting forced me to really kick in the legs during the drive portion. Up to that time, I was heaving the handle back with my upper body. That tired me out rather quickly. By using the large, strong muscles of the legs, it gets the flywheel really spinning. And because you have a lower setting, there isn't as much air coming into the flywheel chamber to slow it down. Hence the darn thing keeps spinning faster for a longer period of time. Hope all this makes sense. Hope I haven't babbled to much. Dwayne  </td></tr></table> Hi Dwayne, Yep, OK, I think this makes sense. I'm going to take on board your advice, and I've also just printed off the training guide. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do!! I'll let you know how I get on.

[old] Big Dave · Post by **[old] Big Dave** » July 21st, 2004, 4:12 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Sir Pirate @ Jul 21 2004, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Big Dave @ Jul 21 2004, 07:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The last time I tried a lower setting (Level 6), I found I was struggling to stay on the seat. OK, I admit, I actually came off once.  </td></tr></table> Dave, going by your comment above I would say you do have a Technique problem. How may holes do you have showing on the footplates. I am no expert but it sounds to me like your weight distribution is out when you are rowing. Have you had a look at the technique video they have on the concept 2 web site. I will try and find the link to it for you if you have not. Are you based in the U.K or the good old U.S of A? Sir Pirate  </td></tr></table> Hi Sir Pirate, I'm in the UK... Now, footplates and number of holes showing is a new one on me. When I was first shown how to use the ERG, I was never told how to adjust the footplate, so I always jump on and go. Clearly, I'm missing a trick!! This could be all I need to gain those 4 seconds.... let me know if you find the video! Sir Pirate... name like that you must be in the UK too, right?

[old] TomR/the elder · Post by **[old] TomR/the elder** » July 21st, 2004, 5:20 pm

Big Dave-- Don't abandon the longer rows at a slower pace. Perhaps you've got a background in endurance sports, and have a good "base." It takes you 3 1/2 minutes to go 1000 meters, the same time as it takes an elite athlete to run 1,500 meters. 2000 meters, the standard race distance, will be a 7-minute (give or take) event for you. That means you're a middle-distance athlete, and your performance will benefit over time by getting your body to make the adaptations necessary for endurance. Longer, slower work plays an important role in accomplishing that. Besides, you can't row short, intense intervals every day, all year long without something eventually giving out. Tom Rawls

[old] sockman71 · Post by **[old] sockman71** » July 21st, 2004, 9:02 pm

What a timely board! I'm doing a 1k time trial tomorrow as part of my training schedule to get to a 10k in under 40 mins. I'm going to set the DF at 135 (close to a 6 setting on the new models and a 4 on old models). My cardio strength is pathetic, but my muscle strength is about average. I did a 3:26.6 the first time I did a time trial at this distancce ( a few weeks ago). The definition of an (erg) ergometer: An instrument for measuring the amount of work done by a muscle or group of muscles. In these posts, they are talking about the C2 rowing machine. Dwayne... do you think I should do it at a lower DF?

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » July 22nd, 2004, 4:30 am

Hey, sockman, 3:26.6 ain't bad for a first time, it's on par with a 7:13 for a 2k unless you solely depended on strength. I would say for a normally built man (180cm 75kg), 20-35 yo, a 2k in 7:40 is average first time. Any faster and you have gotten some talent. Any slower and... you need to train . Now I don't know you build but either how, 3:26 seems good to me.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 22nd, 2004, 4:35 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>When I first started erging, I kept my damper at around 180 (8 setting). It wasn't until I was exposed to more experienced rowers/ergers, that I learned what I was doing was actually hurting my performance. By lowering the damper setting from 8 to 3 (I now use a 2'ish setting) my 2k pb dropped from a 6:03 to a 5:47.8.  </td></tr></table> Our histories are _exactly_ the same. I set my world records over the last year or so rowing on damper setting 8 (around 180 df), initiating my stroke with my upper body. Over this last spring and summer, I have dropped the drag to setting 3 (110df or so), rowed strapless at high power and low stroke rates, and changed my stroke so that I initiate it with my legs. Result: At the same stroke rates, I go along at 4 seconds/500 faster. I don't know whether I can reap all of this gain in the 2K (I will need to develop the endurance and aeorobic capacity to support this stronger stroke), but this 4 seconds per 500, it seems, it exactly the same improvement you have realized in your 2K (16 seconds: 6:03 became 5:47) from exactly the same change in technique. I hope I am as lucky! If so, the result would be _way_ out there. At 6:28, I already have the world record for the 50s lwts by 4 seconds over the former world record holder. A 16 second improvement would make that 6:12! I suspect that my age and the effect of age on aeorobic capacity will limit my ability to reap all of this gain in the 2K, but the prospects are encouraging, nonetheless. I am 53. ranger

[old] sockman71 · Post by **[old] sockman71** » July 22nd, 2004, 7:19 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Carl Henrik @ Jul 22 2004, 03:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Hey, sockman, 3:26.6 ain't bad for a first time, it's on par with a 7:13 for a 2k unless you solely depended on strength. I would say for a normally built man (180cm 75kg), 20-35 yo, a 2k in 7:40 is average first time. Any faster and you have gotten some talent. Any slower and... you need to train . Now I don't know you build but either how, 3:26 seems good to me.  </td></tr></table> Thanks Karl. I've done one 2k time trial = 7:36.6. My next 2k should be below 7:30 since I've been training for about 7 weeks. I'm 33, 5'9", about 180-5 lbs depending on the day.

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 22nd, 2004, 9:13 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (sockman71 @ Jul 21 2004, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Dwayne... do you think I should do it at a lower DF?  </td></tr></table> Sockman, I would. I found that by lowering the DF, that I was forced to initiate the drive with my legs (most powerful set of muscles in the body) rather than using my upper body. Now if you're only a few days away from a race I'd leave it just the way it is. You're used to racing that way, so don't muck with it. If, on the other hand, you have some time before your race/trial, then lower the DF. At first you'll find that it's alot harder to maintain a split that you're used to. However, once you learn how to get those legs moving all that will change. In fact, here's a good warm up exercise. 3 sets total. 10 strokes legs only (really explode out of the catch), 10 strokes legs and back, 10 strokes legs, back, arms. You should really be driving the legs every time. Dwayne

[old] Rocket Roy · Post by **[old] Rocket Roy** » July 22nd, 2004, 11:41 am

This is an area where I think I can improve, I used to cycle a lot and can leg press 350 kilos or thereabouts. I feel that I'm not getting the best out of my legs. Any suggestions as to how to make them more explosive? Apart from the excellent suggestion above.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 22nd, 2004, 3:16 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Rocket Roy @ Jul 22 2004, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>This is an area where I think I can improve, I used to cycle a lot and can leg press 350 kilos or thereabouts. I feel that I'm not getting the best out of my legs. Any suggestions as to how to make them more explosive? Apart from the excellent suggestion above. </td></tr></table> Roy-- In the off season (i.e., for six months or so each year), do all of your training strapless, at low stroke rates, at high power, and with the lowest drag possible (Paul Smith recommends setting 1). When doing this, be patient and don't compromise. At first, the paces you can achieve will be pathetic, but keep doing it until you can match all of your pbs while strapless, at low drag, and at least 10MPS. Then, and only then, strap in and return to normal drag. When doing this, work hard on (1) getting your body forward to full compression at the catch, (2) using all of the slide, (3) driving off the balls of your feet (even if your heels are elevated off the footplace), (4) setting your heels as quickly as possible, (5) delaying the engagement of your back until your heels are set, (6) finishing your stroke quickly and completely with your arms, (7) getting your hands quickly away, and (8) swinging forward at the hips to a good prep position before breaking your legs to move up the slide to the catch. In my opinion, if you really want to get it right, it doesn't help much to do just some of this. You need to do it all. A good measure of your success, I think, is this: A big strong boy like you should be able to row comfortably at about 11-12 SPI in all of your normal rowing when strapped in and at normal drag. ranger

[old] Phil · Post by **[old] Phil** » July 22nd, 2004, 3:25 pm

Roy, with leg power like that, you should be able to motor along at a ridiculous pace at low ratings! Low rating stuff should help your technique, and make sure you're opening your back out quick enough. I can only leg press 250kg or so, so you shouldn't have any difficulty beating my low rating splits!

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » July 22nd, 2004, 3:37 pm

I think the kind of workout that Dwayne has been describing it's the ultimate workout for someone like you. Your problem is to turn your strength into muscular power, that is, apply strength very quickly. Basically, a lot of neuromuscular adaptation in needed... blast of your erg at low drag. That's why rowers need, not only to be strong, but also to spit their guts off... lol Keep rowing, AM

[old] mileypau · Post by **[old] mileypau** » July 23rd, 2004, 4:10 am

Ranger, Roy........anyone !!!!! what is SPI ?? Paul

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 23rd, 2004, 4:11 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Your problem is to turn your strength into muscular power, that is, apply strength very quickly. </td></tr></table> Exactly. This is the major problem, I think, with big, strong rowers who have trouble fashioning a strong stroke. Rowing is not like weight lifting. There is no gravity. In the rowing stroke, the "weight" lifted is not generated just by strength but by leg speed, back speed, arm speed, and the explosiveness created by how smoothly and solidly these are anchored/connected through the core muscles to (first) the balls of the feet and (then) the heels on the footplate (i.e., "suspension" at the catch, etc.). If you are very strong but lack one or more of these other things, in rowing, your strength is wasted and becomes, in essence, dead weight that you have to feed (with oxygen, etc.) nonetheless, to no benefit (or even detriment). ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » July 23rd, 2004, 4:20 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (mileypau @ Jul 23 2004, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger, Roy........anyone !!!!! what is SPI ?? Paul </td></tr></table> Paul-- SPI is "stroke power index," average watts divided by stroke rate. IMHO, the best way to train is to fashion a stroke with a certain SPI and then use it in all (or at least most) of your training, regardless of the distance your are covering or pace you are achieving over that distance. I am now rowing at 12 SPI. This means that if I row for an hour at 1:50 pace, I row at 22 spm. If I row 5K at 1:47, I row at 24 spm. If I row race pace (1:37 for me), I row at 32 spm. If I row a marathon at 1:53, I row at 20 spm. And so forth. ranger

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