Leg Drive

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » June 16th, 2004, 4:13 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Jim Barry @ Jun 15 2004, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> 2) I prefer 10meters per stroke in training (I took it on kicking and screaming)  </td></tr></table> Jim, what did you do before: more or less than 10MPS? More than 10MPS, I guess? I am trying to use my legs as primary power source too. I am improving, but indeed, it takes a long time. My MPS are coming down a bit, from 10.6-ish to 10.3-ish now. Tom

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » June 16th, 2004, 4:33 pm

waiiit - wouldn't you want MORE meters per stroke -i.e. more power going into the flywheel?

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » June 16th, 2004, 5:18 pm

Tom, LESS than 10mps. Like high 8's. Any 10k paced at 1:56 to 2:00 would be like 28 to 29 spm. Now a 2:00 pace is 25spm, strictly. In the past a 2:05 paced 10k (bread and butter fitness row) would be around 27 sometimes 28. Now it is 23 and I'm fine with 21spm. That is a huge difference. Interesting my resting HR is about 5 beats lower all things being equal. Odd because I would have though lower spm would have been less of a cardio load and more of a muscular load. Live and learn. As far as getting to 10mps (on the dot) it is probably a matter of discipline. You know the paces and SR combinations. Get rid of your ego that says you are "faster" at different ratios and just row. Eventually you adapt and it is some fun taking the challenge to row within a new constraint.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 16th, 2004, 7:04 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> wouldn't you want MORE meters per stroke -i.e. more power going into the flywheel?  </td></tr></table> To go faster, you certainly want more power going to the flywheel. Fortunately this is easily measured, as the monitor converts power into pace, thus a faster pace means you're generating more power. By watching the monitor, and finding the style, rate, rhythm, stroke rate, meters per stroke etc, that gets the pace going faster, you're also finding the most effective way to apply that power to the flywheel. A higher rating is more difficult to coordinate, which is why some find they can go faster at lower ratings. But the only way to gain that coordination is to practice it.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 16th, 2004, 7:26 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>A higher rating is more difficult to coordinate, which is why some find they can go faster at lower ratings. </td></tr></table> Yes, high rates are more difficult to coordinate if you row strapless and achieve proper timing, body positioning, and a full use of the legs. If not, you can cheat all over the place (neglecting your legs, rowing with just your arms and back, and leveraging up and down the slide with the straps). If you do this, a high rate is _very_ easy to achieve. The problem is: a stroke of this sort usually lacks power. ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 16th, 2004, 9:07 pm

More power = faster pace. 50's lightweight Rod Freed rows 10k at 1:42.8 pace.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 17th, 2004, 6:20 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>1) Strapless rowing is just like strapped rowing (at rates under 26 spm) 2) I prefer 10meters per stroke in training (I took it on kicking and screaming) 3) My legs are bigger (just like the water rowing days) 4) My times are faster again and I feel I have something to build more endurance into (e.g. bigger legs) </td></tr></table> Jim-- The problem I see in rowing exclusively at 10MPS is how you get (quickly?) from, say, 25 spm to even 30 spm (much less higher). The difficulty is not in the rate; the difficulty is the precipitous increase in power needed per stroke. 2:00 pace at 25 spm is about 8 SPI. 10MPS at 30 spm is 1:40 pace and 11.7 SPI. I think you might find that your times have improved because you have been rowing at a higher stroking power in training, not just because you have been rowing at 10MPS. And if so, there is no need to stop at 10 MPS when rowing at 22 spm (or whatever). To get to where you need to go to improve your rowing at high paces, you might now benefit from rowing at even higher stroking powers, as in Level 4 rowing in the Wolverine Plan. I have been rowing strapless at right about 11 SPI (sometimes higher). This is (just above) the stroking power I use in the 2K. For you, rowing strapless at 9-10 SPI might be productive. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 17th, 2004, 6:22 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 16 2004, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>More power = faster pace. 50's lightweight Rod Freed rows 10k at 1:42.8 pace. </td></tr></table> John-- What does Freed rate when he rows a 10K? ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 17th, 2004, 7:03 am

Jim and John-- Sorry to jump the gun and guess at an answer to my own question, but here would be my analysis of what is happening. I would guess that Freed rows his 10Ks at about 32 spm. This is indeed pretty high in rate. Nonetheless, this is also 10 SPI. My 10K pb is old, but I also rowed it at 32 spm, but at only about 9 SPI. If Freed rows a 2K at 36 spm, he also rows it at just under 10 SPI (6:39). Jim has been rowing at 8 SPI. At 36 spm, 8 SPI is 7:06 or so for 2K. So what is the proper analysis. I don't have any trouble at all getting the rate up, if I row improperly and lower the power in my stroke. Rate is not the problem at all. The problem is power per stroke, even in the 10K. Freed has the same problem with the 2K. He has no problem getting the rate up; he has problem increasing the power. So what is the conclusion. Caviston's Wolverine Plan Level 4 rowing, etc. Train so that you increase the "normal" power per stroke. Forget about rate in your training. ranger

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » June 17th, 2004, 9:45 am

Ranger and John, I'm not going to get caught up in the crossfire of all this stroke rate analysis. I see Freed/Caviston/ and the WP is coming into the conversation. Not a good sign. But not to dismiss Freed. Last night reading some material on the physiology of biking, I did find a "Freed" of sorts in the bike world. I'm sure you've heard of Miguel Indurain. His attempt at the hour record was estimated that he was putting out 510 watts for the hour (not sure if that compares to rowing watts), interestingly his 4 minute all out power (called Wmax) is about 572watts. He is no 4000m pursuit master so I doubt this Wmax is all that impressive as a stat by itself. But to be able to sustain 90% of his Wmax for 60 minutes is mind blowing endurance. It is also a testament to his mental fortitude. Eddy Merckx claimed that "he was never the same" after his hour record in the early 70's.

[old] Ericr · Post by **[old] Ericr** » June 17th, 2004, 10:19 am

Jim, not to go off-topic even more. But I think Indurain was close to being the best at short Timetrails too (winning some prologues in the Tour de France). So his performance for 4000 meter was close to or at world class performance. Another rider of that time, Chris Boardman held the world record for the 4000m pursuit and the world hour record. I guess his Wmax for 4000m and the hour was also in the range as for Indurain. A lot of of time trailers on the road started on the track by the way. You see the same pattern with the ladies, Leontien Zijlaard-van Moorsel holds the hour world record and she held the 3K record at the track until the last world championsships. So at bicycling it seems to be common to extend a almost maximal performance for quite some time.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 17th, 2004, 10:46 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John-- What does Freed rate when he rows a 10K?  </td></tr></table> Good question. I have wondered about this, and don't know, but my estimation is 36.5 spm. Long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen rows his 2k's at 8 meters per stroke, which is 41.2 spm. Rod Freed stated in his interview that he focuses on what feels easier at the catch to get the monitor going faster, i.e., "a quick catch feels "easier" than a big "weightlifting-type" slug at the catch, but the quick catch lets me go faster". Thus this high stroke rate is important to Freed, as well as to Ebbesen. So Freed is very likely going at a similar 8 meters per stroke, which is 36.5 strokes per minute.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 17th, 2004, 10:53 am

Jim, If memory serves correctly, Eddy Merckx started at an unbelieveably fast rate in his hour record, at right around 60.5 for the first 1000 meters, close to the world record for that distance on it's own. No wonder he was never the same again! As a general note, time trialists typically keep a very high rating, sometimes as high as 120 rpm. Lance Armstrong kept his rating mostly at 110 rpm this past winter, on rides of 4 to 5 hours! The purpose of this, as explained by his coach, was to develop aerobic fitness and coordination at high rates.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 17th, 2004, 6:20 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jun 17 2004, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John-- What does Freed rate when he rows a 10K?  </td></tr></table> Good question. I have wondered about this, and don't know, but my estimation is 36.5 spm. Long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen rows his 2k's at 8 meters per stroke, which is 41.2 spm. Rod Freed stated in his interview that he focuses on what feels easier at the catch to get the monitor going faster, i.e., "a quick catch feels "easier" than a big "weightlifting-type" slug at the catch, but the quick catch lets me go faster". Thus this high stroke rate is important to Freed, as well as to Ebbesen. So Freed is very likely going at a similar 8 meters per stroke, which is 36.5 strokes per minute. </td></tr></table> John-- We are both speculating about Freed's rate. I suppose nothing can be said until we find out for sure about what he rates for 10K. I have messaged him and asked; we'll see if he replies. I would be _very_ surprised if he rates 36-37 spm for a 10K, but who knows, you may be right. If he rates about 32 spm for 10K but 36 spm for 2K, these results will be interestingly correlated. Given his times, he will row both of these distnaces with the same stroking power, the same SPI, a very common practice. What will be surprising about his 10K will still be its high rating, 32 spm, but the implications for training will be _very_ different from your interpretation. ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 17th, 2004, 8:16 pm

Rich, It will be interesting to see if you get a reply. What do you have to say about Eskild Ebbesen rowing at 41.3 spm and 8 mps? Based on that, he would do a 10k at > 38 spm.

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