Leg Drive

[old] Trident_101 · Post by **[old] Trident_101** » June 10th, 2004, 4:33 pm

i'm not getting sufficient leg drive both on the erg and while rowing on the water. i find the problem particuarly bad at high rate, say 32+. Has anyone any tips on how to increase the leg drive?

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 10th, 2004, 4:53 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Trident_101 @ Jun 10 2004, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i'm not getting sufficient leg drive both on the erg and while rowing on the water. i find the problem particuarly bad at high rate, say 32+. Has anyone any tips on how to increase the leg drive? </td></tr></table> Three suggestions: (1) Do all of your rowing strapless at low drag for six months or so. Then raise the drag back up and strap in. (2) Do a lot of slow spm rowing at a high SPI (e.g., 13 or so). Level 4 sequences in the Wolverine Plan are an instance. (3) Drive off your toes/bof but do not engage your back and arms until you set your heels. This will naturally separate your initial leg drive from the following drive with your back (and finish with your arms). ranger

[old] R S T · Post by **[old] R S T** » June 10th, 2004, 7:21 pm

I am confused .... One school of thought would suggest that maximum power would result from keeping feet flat as opposed to toes/ball of foot first followed by flatening of foot. Assuming no flexibilty problems (i.e. achieving vertical shins at catch while keeping feet flat on footplate) - surely the maximum power comes from commencing the drive with feet flat? Any thoughts? RichardT

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » June 11th, 2004, 5:18 am

Lifting the heel or not isn't really important... that's down to flexibility as much as anything else. The main thing is to get the legs and back into a strong position to drive, and have the arms and shoulders relaxed so you 'hang' off the handle during the leg drive. The feet need to be solid, but even if they start with heel raised they will go flat as you drive, and as long as the drive is supported by the foot I really don't think it matters about heel down or not. Then some coaches tell you to start opening the back during the leg drive, others tell you to not move the back until you finish the leg drive. As long as you can fully apply the power from the legs you are fine. Any weakness will either result in having to lessen the leg drive so the weak link can cope, or doing something wrong like bum shoving...

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » June 11th, 2004, 11:52 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Cran @ Jun 11 2004, 09:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Lifting the heel or not isn't really important... that's down to flexibility as much as anything else. Then some coaches tell you to start opening the back during the leg drive, others tell you to not move the back until you finish the leg drive.  </td></tr></table> It is somewhat important if maximum force is to be attained during the leg drive, and early in the drive. One thing is for sure, until the heels are down there is force being absorbed and this reduces the power in the stroke. The coach that insists on legs down before the trunk opens is being ridiculous and overexaggerating the segmentation of the stroke. Perhaps they are justified, as the result may be that the rower simply stops taking the catch with the opening of the trunk, putting things in the correct order. When you see someone completely seperate the Legs/Body/Arms it looks very strange and jerky, some overlap is required to keep the stroke fluid; this is equally important on the recovery as it is on the drive. If I had to nail down a single important aspect to early power generation it would be to not overflex at the knee, this creates a mechanical disadvantage that no amount of strength training is going to help. Well, maybe deep squats would help, but check the difference between a regular and deep squat capability and you will see what the disadvantage is. Keep in mind that the drive portion of the stroke begins and ends in a certain amount of time, relative to boat (flywheel) speed, and you must apply as much force as possible in that time to be effective. It's not uncommon to see taller Rowers rowing at what appears to be shorter strokes for just this reason, however their results are just fine. Erg on, Paul Smith

[old] R S T · Post by **[old] R S T** » June 11th, 2004, 9:36 pm

Sorry PaulS, but I am still confused. I know you know your stuff, but maybe I am just thick - put simply, I did not fully understand your last post, i.e. I am none the wiser Should I be aiming for: (i) flat feet and vertical shins at catch, and drive; or (ii) get to vertical shins at catch, drive off balls of feet, feet down flat on footplate as soon as possible, driving harder as feet move to flat I am trying to achieve (i) above (despite some flexibility issues). So, what would you recommend? Also - what works for everyone else? Cheers RichardT PS - If the drive is giving approx 70-75% of the stroke power, then it must be a crucial factor in overall technique - I remain surprised that there are different schools of thought about the leg drive.

[old] Alex Carter · Post by **[old] Alex Carter** » June 12th, 2004, 1:02 am

I'm very new at this, and wonder, am I "squatting" down too "low" when I'm erging then? Because the edge of the seat touches my Achilles tendon when I do it. Also I discovered that the gluteus maximus can help out in the drive, ow is my bum sore now lol. But is that the dreaded "bum shoving"?

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 12th, 2004, 3:37 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (R S T @ Jun 10 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I am confused .... One school of thought would suggest that maximum power would result from keeping feet flat as opposed to toes/ball of foot first followed by flatening of foot. Assuming no flexibilty problems (i.e. achieving vertical shins at catch while keeping feet flat on footplate) - surely the maximum power comes from commencing the drive with feet flat? Any thoughts? RichardT </td></tr></table> I didn't mention driving off the balls of the feet (with the heel raised) as the _best_ thing to do. I suggested it as a _remedy_ for a poor leg drive. Overflexing can also be a problem, but I think the most frequent difficulty in the leg drive is an immediate engagement of the back and arms, which protects the legs from strain and therefore (initially, at least) feels like the natural thing to do, especially if you have just normallly strong legs and do not have a long history with the sport. Being able to deliver a fully functional and technically correct leg drive in rowing takes _enormously_ strong legs, much stronger than, say, the legs of even a very good runner. Therefore, it is natural to try to shield the legs from full strain when you begin to row. Why? Initially at least, you go faster! By using your core muscles upper body earlier you compensate for your legs, which just aren't up to the task. I mention driving off with the legs off the balls of the feet as a remedy for this because it helps isolate the leg drive (somewhat more) and therefore can be used in training to build strength in the legs. Sure, if you can keep your foot flat but still drive off the balls of the feet at the catch, then do it. But if you do, the temptation, I think, is to drive off the heel and engage the back and arms too early, and since this is what you are trying to avoid, there can be a recurrent problem. Rowing toe-to-heel (with proper timing) is especially effective if it is combined with rowing (1) strapless, (2) at low drag, and (3) at high power. Strapless rowing also tends to make the legs work harder and cleaner, and not just at the beginning of the stroke--at the finish and in the recovery, too. Strapless rowing frees up the feet on the footplate so that you can rock easily from toe to heel at the catch and into the drive. Rowing at low drag increases the ratio in the stroke, both the speed of the drive and the length of the recovery, and having fast feet/legs helps engage them more, especially when you go back to normal drag. Getting a good leg drive depends crucially on a quick engagement of the legs at the catch, especially when rowing at high rates. Rowing at high power does much the same thing, especially if you do this rowing strapless and at low drag. In order to generate enough power to get to something like 13 SPI while rowing strapless at low drag, you are strongly encouraged to find more and more leverage earlier and earlier at the catch--with your legs. At high power and a low stroke rate, the ratio of the stroke gets even higher, too, demanding an even quicker engagement of the feet/legs. If your legs are weak (or even just normally strong), all of this (rowing strapless, at low drag and high power) can be pretty challenging. Relative to other activities, at first, it does not feel natural at all because it is so enormously taxing on the legs. Then again, if you stick at it, your legs (slowly) develop the strength they need and things get progressively easier. When this happens, going back to rowing strapped in at normal powers and drag can be quite a rush. With more leg power, proper timing, the other levers made available by the straps, and normal speeds and therefore just a normal strain on the legs at the catch and finish, the feeling of developed/augmented potential is enormous. You will find that, without any additional effort, you can go both faster and longer than you could before you concentrated on developing your legs and engaging them fully. My guess would be that many, many ergers do not fully develop and engage their legs, especially older ergers. They "muscle" the stroke with their upper bodies to protect their legs from the full strain of the technically correct rowing stroke. This is certainly what I did, and it takes quite an effort to break this habit, especially if you have a naturally strong core and upper body (as I do). As I know well from my running days, if you are an older rower, these technical matters can be even harder to confront because (in my experience), it is the legs that are the first things to weaken as you get older. By the way, I am 53 years old and hold the 50-59 lwt world record (6:28). I think that a full engagement of the legs is a crucial limitation in my age and weight division. By developingand engaging my legs more fully, I think I might be able to inch my world record down toward 6:24 or so this next year. ranger

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » June 12th, 2004, 5:06 am

I videoed myself during erging and found out I am opening my back too early. I don't think my core muscle are very strong so the conclusion must be that I am lessening my leg drive to be able to open up that early in the stroke. I agree with Ranger and Cran. Especially their opinions in the following quotes are helping me to develop a more efficient leg drive. "Drive off your toes/bof but do not engage your back and arms until you set your heels. This will naturally separate your initial leg drive from the following drive with your back (and finish with your arms)." "The feet need to be solid, but even if they start with heel raised they will go flat as you drive, and as long as the drive is supported by the foot I really don't think it matters about heel down or not." "Any weakness will either result in having to lessen the leg drive so the weak link can cope" "Lifting the heel or not isn't really important... that's down to flexibility as much as anything else" "many ergers do not fully develop and engage their legs, especially older ergers. They "muscle" the stroke with their upper bodies to protect their legs from the full strain of the technically correct rowing stroke." Thanks. Tom

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » June 12th, 2004, 9:37 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (R S T @ Jun 12 2004, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Should I be aiming for: (i) flat feet and vertical shins at catch, and drive; or (ii) get to vertical shins at catch, drive off balls of feet, feet down flat on footplate as soon as possible, driving harder as feet move to flat I am trying to achieve (i) above (despite some flexibility issues). Cheers RichardT PS - If the drive is giving approx 70-75% of the stroke power, then it must be a crucial factor in overall technique - I remain surprised that there are different schools of thought about the leg drive.  </td></tr></table> "Thick", we can probably make a rower out of you then. Most simple summary: Get your shins to vertical and continue to work on ankle flexibility until it allows for your foot to remain flat on the stretcher. (See, you already figured it out on your own.) 100% of the stroke power comes from the Drive, but you probably meant the 'legs'. It's not so much different schools of thought regarding the "leg drive" as it is the "whole drive". It is also complicated by what works on an Erg (Flatter, lower, longer force), versus what works on the water (Higher, quicker, 'left leaning haystack'). These differences are caused by the nature of the chain Vs Blade properties, i.e. Chains don't slip, or travel in arcs. Erg on, Paul Smith

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 12th, 2004, 10:55 am

I continue to think that the major issue with the feet at the catch is where force is applied (balls of the feet vs. full foot vs. heels) rather than whether the foot is flat on the footplate. ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 12th, 2004, 4:49 pm

Eskild Ebbesen has a continuous rocking motion, balls of feet to heels and back, every stroke. Rocking, rocking, back and forth, back and forth. Rob Waddell also goes up on the balls of his feet at the catch, then back down through on his heels again.

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 12th, 2004, 6:53 pm

It's unusual to find an erger or rower who keeps their heels flat at the catch. You have to be very flexible or most who try end up shortening their stroke significantly and consequently losing power. My advice is don't worry about them being flat at the catch, but to get them down as soon as comfortably possible. I do think they should be flat by the time your legs are applying their full power.

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » June 15th, 2004, 5:16 pm

I agree with Ranger here that our natural attempt at rowing will not summons the legs as primary drivers. Secondly, I'll agree with the notion that that once you learn to row without a robust leg drive (instead doing high rate and lots of arms and back), that it takes a LONG time to undo the habit. I rowed about 3 million meters in 2 years without emphasis on my legs. Then I tried to reteach myself a good leg drive ( I had known it 14 years earlier when I rowed on the water). It took me another 2 million meters over a 2 years period (maybe 200 rows) to get to a point today where: 1) Strapless rowing is just like strapped rowing (at rates under 26 spm) 2) I prefer 10meters per stroke in training (I took it on kicking and screaming) 3) My legs are bigger (just like the water rowing days) 4) My times are faster again and I feel I have something to build more endurance into (e.g. bigger legs) I'm interested in why the adaption takes so long to accomplish, but it does.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » June 15th, 2004, 7:43 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Jim Barry @ Jun 15 2004, 04:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I agree with Ranger here that our natural attempt at rowing will not summons the legs as primary drivers. Secondly, I'll agree with the notion that that once you learn to row without a robust leg drive (instead doing high rate and lots of arms and back), that it takes a LONG time to undo the habit. I rowed about 3 million meters in 2 years without emphasis on my legs. Then I tried to reteach myself a good leg drive ( I had known it 14 years earlier when I rowed on the water). It took me another 2 million meters over a 2 years period (maybe 200 rows) to get to a point today where: 1) Strapless rowing is just like strapped rowing (at rates under 26 spm) 2) I prefer 10meters per stroke in training (I took it on kicking and screaming) 3) My legs are bigger (just like the water rowing days) 4) My times are faster again and I feel I have something to build more endurance into (e.g. bigger legs) I'm interested in why the adaption takes so long to accomplish, but it does. </td></tr></table> Jim-- Our histories on the erg are very similar. I also erged for almost 3 years "muscling" my stroke with my back and upper body. I am also now on my second year of effort trying to undo the habit. It does indeed take a long, long time to develop proper technique if you have been doing something else for a long time, especially if you have been doing something else successfully. I still am much faster strapped in than rowing strapless, and I find that the strapless work is still _very_ hard (relative to the work strapped in). I am sticking with it, though. I am uncertain what the outcome will be of mastering standard rowing technique for my performance on the erg. I set the world record in my division by "muscling" my stroke. My efforts rowing strapless and with better timing in the off season last year earned me two more seconds off my world record, so I am encouraged. But I am not sure how these things will turn out this next year. On the other hand, I _know_ that mastering good technique on the erg is helping me on the water. I don't know whether this is unusual, but I am able to take the stroke rate right up to 40 spm in my scull with little problem in technique, even though I am just a beginning sculler. Of course, I have lots of technique work still to do in my scull, but I know that my work rowing strapless at low drag and with proper timing and body positioning has helped prepare me for this work. Congratulations on your (full) success in improving your technique. I'm envious! ranger P.S. Yes, my legs are also getting bigger.

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