Training With Xeno Mueller

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 15th, 2004, 9:13 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Coach Gus @ Jul 14 2004, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (dadams @ Jul 14 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> No, but the more you use the foot stretchers in the boat, the more check you will put on the boat.  </td></tr></table><br>How does this put check on the boat?  </td></tr></table><br> The more of a sudden change in momentum in the boat, the more check that will be placed on the boat. <br>So the more you rely on your footstretchers to change your momentum, the more check will be place on the boat.<br><br>Dwayne

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 15th, 2004, 11:32 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (dadams @ Jul 15 2004, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The more of a sudden change in momentum in the boat, the more check that will be placed on the boat. <br>So the more you rely on your footstretchers to change your momentum, the more check will be place on the boat.<br><br>Dwayne  </td></tr></table><br>Let me see if I can help with this one.<br><br>At the finish, the system (rower + equipment) is moving at the same speed as the hull. <br>The system speed is going to begin to slow as soon as the blades are removed from the water.<br>The drag on the hull increases by a square relationship to the hull velocity.<br>If the stretchers are tugged at too aggressively, the hull speed will exceed the velocity it had at the finish, but this can only be accomplished by a trade off for the large momentum of our body toward the finish line, which must be reaccelerated on the next drive.<br><br>The boat is obviously drawn beneath the rower on the recovery, but the speed at which this is done has a dramatic effect on the ultimate fluctuation of system speed about the average system speed.<br><br>So while tugging greatly at the foot stretchers causes greater check to occur (there will alwasy be some check, it is desireable to have it happen very quickly), the check occurs after all the tugging is complete, not during the tugging itself. (at least in a practical sense, since they are inseperable in a pure sense)<br><br>- Paul Smith

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 15th, 2004, 11:40 am

Well said Paul. Leave it to a coach to explain it with such detail. <br><br>Dwayne

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 15th, 2004, 1:29 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (dadams @ Jul 14 2004, 11:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the more you use the foot stretchers in the boat, the more check you will put on the boat. <br><br> </td></tr></table><br>That's fine as to not over checking the boat.<br><br>However, you have to get back up the slide somehow, and if this is not by the stability and use of the feet then wouldn't this need to be done by some less efficient means, such as contortions with the torso. <br><br>And wouldn't that be more likely to check the boat.<br><br>Eskild Ebbesen, in his 6:06.4 earlier this year, had amazing use of the posterior tibialis and other posterior lower leg muscles when coming back up the slide for recovery. The Danes in general appear to also consider use of the feet and straps as being very important.<br><br>I find this interesting, and so am curious if you and Xeno Mueller also consider this use of the feet and lower leg muscles to be important for recovery.

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » July 15th, 2004, 4:28 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (PaulS @ Jul 15 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The boat is obviously drawn beneath the rower on the recovery, but the speed at which this is done has a dramatic effect on the ultimate fluctuation of system speed about the average system speed.<br><br>  </td></tr></table><br> ???????????????

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 15th, 2004, 4:56 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Coach Gus @ Jul 15 2004, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (PaulS @ Jul 15 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The boat is obviously drawn beneath the rower on the recovery, but the speed at which this is done has a dramatic effect on the ultimate fluctuation of system speed about the average system speed.<br><br>  </td></tr></table><br>???????????????  </td></tr></table><br> You have a question? You may have to provide a bit of your own background so that I could try to cite some more understandable examples in an answer.<br><br>You are coaching rowing?<br><br>- Paul Smith

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » July 15th, 2004, 5:22 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (PaulS @ Jul 15 2004, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> You have a question? </td></tr></table><br><br>Was questioning what you were trying to say in the latter part of the sentence I quoted, "the ultimate fluctuation of system speed about the average system speed." I apologize for not being more specific in my ?????????????????

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 15th, 2004, 6:27 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Coach Gus @ Jul 15 2004, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Was questioning what you were trying to say in the latter part of the sentence I quoted, "the ultimate fluctuation of system speed about the average system speed." I apologize for not being more specific in my ?????????????????  </td></tr></table><br> Ah, to be efficient, we would want to keep the instantaneous system speed in a narrow band surrounding the average speed. This would be accomplished by making a controlled recovery where the hull speed does not exceed the peak system speed attained at the release.<br><br>Here's why:<br><br>"The influence of changes in velocity of the boat on the work required by the crew to sustain an average velocity can be illustrated by considering two simple cases:<br><br>Case 1 : If boat speed is 3m/s for a period of 3 seconds <br>The power consumed (P a Vb³) P a 3³ x 3 = 81<br>and resistance (R a Vb²) is R a 3² x 3 = 27<br>Since R is the resistance to the flow of the boat it must equal the force needed to drive the boat through the water.<br><br>Case 2 : If the boat speed was 1m/s for 1 second and 4m/s for 2 seconds, the average speed would be the same for the whole stroke and the distance covered would be the same as in Case 1.<br>But power consumed P a (1³ x 1 + 2 x 4³) = 129<br>and resistance R a (1² x 1 + 4² x 2) = 33<br>It can be concluded that keeping the velocity changes of the boat as small as possible is essential."<br><br>Snipped from a quite good article by C J F P Jones & C J N Miller University of Newcastle.<br><br>The trade-off of momentum is pretty much unfelt by the rower in a boat, as a matter of fact they will generally claim to be "going like a bat out of hell" or "pulling their ass off" when all objective measures indicate otherwise, they are going quite slowly.<br><br>I recently illustrated this for my wife, rowing a 2x together, by exceeding the speed of he NW USA regional gold medal W4x while she reported much less perceived effort being involved, Lower SR too. <br><br>- Paul Smith

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » July 15th, 2004, 7:50 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (PaulS @ Jul 15 2004, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> This would be accomplished by making a controlled recovery where the hull speed does not exceed the peak system speed attained at the release.<br><br>  </td></tr></table><br> According to how I'm reading what you wrote, the system is rower and equipment, but not hull. Peak system system speed is a separate measurement from hull speed. Hull speed during recovery can exceed peak system speed. Right? <br><br> <br><br>

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 16th, 2004, 10:09 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Coach Gus @ Jul 15 2004, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> According to how I'm reading what you wrote, the system is rower and equipment, but not hull. Peak system system speed is a separate measurement from hull speed. Hull speed during recovery can exceed peak system speed. Right?  </td></tr></table><br> The hull would be included in the system as part of the equipment. The part which is difficult for many to visualize is the hull/water interface, adn it's variable effect that is tied to velocity (drag).<br><br>While the hull speed can exceed the peak system speed, it can only do so at a cost, and that cost is quite high. Many rowers simply train harder and get strong enough to overcome it, but they could be much faster if they did not have to.<br><br>THe complete article cited above can be found at <a href='http://www.yorkshirerowing.co.uk/biomechanics.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.yorkshirerowing.co.uk/biomec ... r><br>It's not 100% on the mark, but it is very good.<br><br>- Paul Smith

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » July 16th, 2004, 3:38 pm

Great article Paul. Very informative.<br><br>Got any more stuff like that anywhere?<br><br>Dwayne

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 16th, 2004, 4:09 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (dadams @ Jul 16 2004, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Great article Paul. Very informative.<br><br>Got any more stuff like that anywhere?<br><br>Dwayne  </td></tr></table><br> Hmmm, well you could go here:<br><br><a href='http://www.atkinsopht.com/row/rowrpage.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.atkinsopht.com/row/rowrpage. ... br><br>And for even more links:<br><br><a href='http://www.atkinsopht.com/row/rowglnks.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.atkinsopht.com/row/rowglnks. ... Personally I liked the early statement in the Biomechanics article: "Newton's laws describe the relationship between forces and motion and the motion of a boat resulting from the forces applied by the rower is simple to explain in principle."<br><br>The "in principle" should be in BIG BOLD LETTERS. with a side note of: "This is where the arguments will begin!" <br><br>Also, if you have a hankering for a book, get "A textbook of Oarsmanship, G.C. Bourne".<br><br>"Rowing (Rudern) The GDR text of Oarsmanship", Dr. Ernst Herberger, et al., is a marvelously Socialist look at Rowing, and has some very well assembled information.<br><br>The Complete Steve Fairbairn, is something that should be read if you want to see some of the controversy over the years that will prove that there is nothing that hasn't been done before, no matter how clever we think we are being. (Well, except for the CBreeze and Swing Sling.) <br><br>Of course all this can be tied easily to the Erg, as long as the Erg is considered a tool to assist in making boats go fast, making Ergs go fast is pretty easy for anyone with strength and endurance, boats take a bit more discipline.<br><br>- Paul Smith