Battle Of The Giants

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 27th, 2004, 5:19 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Ranger, once again you have demonstrated that you are the only person concerned with age classifications  </td></tr></table> Sirrowsalot-- It is hard to see what supports this claim. The _sport_ has age divisions. Therefore, everyone who competes officially in the sport must be concerned with them. Ignore age divisions if you want, but saying that I am the only one that is concerned with them is pretty strange. Rogus-- Yes, I agree that the division between lightweight and heavyweight (e.g., 165 lbs. for men) is arbitrary. As with age, there are indeed correlations between weight and accomplishment in the sport, however. If you want a continuous measure, then just use a continous adjustment for weight. Using this sort of continuous calculation, lightheavyweights get their full due. At the moment, the large, 10-year age divisions are also arbitrary. A continuous adjustment for age would also be fairer. ranger

[old] Ericr · Post by **[old] Ericr** » May 27th, 2004, 5:25 pm

2 great athletes and I wouldn't know who would win if they would go head to head. Seeing GB at the Crash-B (only by webcast) I would imagine he could go slightly faster than the 5:51 he did that day. But Dwayne has a PB of 5:47 and everybody knows that's quite a margin when you're already rowing to the max. And isn't fun to compare apples with oranges sometimes, even more fun if those apples and oranges are fast as lightning. I also like to compare myself with some older ergers, so my times don't look too crappy Still Rogus, Roy and many others would kick my *ss anytime when we would race head to head. Need to train more !

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 27th, 2004, 5:27 pm

Additionally, golf and bowling are games. They are not athletic contests, that depend on heart and nerve and sinew.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 27th, 2004, 5:30 pm

The continuous adjustment for weight seems to be about a second a kg. ranger

[old] Sir Pirate · Post by **[old] Sir Pirate** » May 27th, 2004, 5:33 pm

I would bet a penny to a pound that Graham will be rowing around the 5:47 mark by the end of this year (no pressure Graham ) Is Dywane going to do any Satellite (is that what you call them over there? ) races this coming season? when will he go for the 40+ World Record? Come on Dwayne lets have some answers, we will then get to see what Dwayne can do in race situations (no pressute Dwayne ) Sir Pirate

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 27th, 2004, 5:33 pm

I hope we're not going to head off on the classic argument of "is it a sport/athletic contest or a game?"

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 27th, 2004, 5:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You are trying to use age as an argument to turn older ergers into something completedly different from younger ergers? </td></tr></table> Indeed I am, just as the sport does. How many rowers over 40 enter the open hwt and lwt races at the big competitions? If age didn't matter, the open races should be flooded with older rowers. ranger

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 27th, 2004, 6:11 pm

At racing in NZ because we have such small fields everyone submits projected times and they try and group people together for both the visual specatacle and the motivation factor (there may only be 4 or 5 racing at once). When I race I dont care the age / sex / or weight of anyone in my race I just want to be the fastest and if the guy that beats me is 20 years younger then I'm not happy about that or 20 years older for that matter .... I RACE TO BE THE FASTEST. Having said that I take great pleasure in winning my age Group ( I work hard or it) and when I look at the rankings I look at my age group and measure myself against my peers because that is the only realtivity I have. I dont think about the fact (much) that I probabaly will never be as fast as I could have been if I had discovered this sport 20 years ago .... but I do close my eyes lean back and dream about how fast I am going to be in the future and not just for my age but for me. GB and I are about the same size and I dont think about competing against him or Dwayne who is closer to my age .... I acknowledge their ability, enjoy the fact that they take the time to talk to me ...... and am secure in the knowledge that when they strap in and I strap in and punch in 2k on the monitor we all know what the other faces and repect each other. - George Summation ..... just row and enjoy and delight in your own and others achievements

[old] kamdo · Post by **[old] kamdo** » May 27th, 2004, 6:12 pm

As a former competitive runner, if I won a 5K at the age of 38, then I win the overall medal/prize for that race. I do not also receive an age group award for the 35-40 age group. We're all arguing semantics here. The elite performances in any sport have no age barriers (obviously within reason until performance precipitously falls off). If a 40 year old has the best time in the world for any given event, even when compared to a 25 year old, then that is a world record period. Obviously, the fact that it was performed by a 40 year old makes it that much more amazing. There is no asterisk after there name just because they are 40. The best in the world should face off head to head, irregardless of age groupings. This is what the original question in this forum asked. Who would win between the two titans. Everyone knows Dyayne is 39. So what!! Age groupings are a way for mere mortals to be able to compare themselves to others of the same age. They do not apply to the elite of the elite who still perform at a level that is the best in the world. Kevin

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 27th, 2004, 7:22 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>We're all arguing semantics here. The elite performances in any sport have no age barriers (obviously within reason until performance precipitously falls off).  </td></tr></table> You're talking about open division performances, in which anyone of any age is eligible. However, a 38 year old is not an elite age 75 performer. Far from it.

[old] Sirrowsalot · Post by **[old] Sirrowsalot** » May 27th, 2004, 8:47 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ranger @ May 27 2004, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>  </td></tr></table> All right Ranger, I'm going to call your bluff: suppose there were no age classifications in indoor rowing, would you then assert that you can compare "accomplisments" in different age and weight brackets by using your adjustment calculator. Similarly, what makes you think that because it is possible to why a forty year old is not typically as fast as a thirty year old, that that means their accomplishments are equivalent? Is your 6:28 as much an accomplishment in the sport as a younger heavyweight rowing a 5:51 (this is the number I think you have said your time adjusts to in the past). I think that this is similar to saying that a win on the Senior PGA is as much of an accomplishment as a win on the PGA, or that a win in an old-timers basketball league is as good as a win in the NBA. So please, just answer these three questions if you don't mind: 1. Do you think it's as much of an athletic accomplishment for a 60 pound man to row a 10:00 (or whatever time) 2k assuming this "adjusted" to under the current world record (5:37), and by what standard? 2: Assuming for the moment that your time "adjusts" to a faster time then Eskild Ebbeson's 2k time, have you accomplished more than him, even if your time is 25 or 26 seconds slower? 3. You said in one of your posts that it would be more "fair" to use a continuous adjustment system for weight and height. In what sense of the word "fair" do you mean this? Is it fair that some people are blessed with more physical talent (in any sport)? Should their accomplishments be "adjusted" away for the less talented simply because physical talent is out of their control?

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 28th, 2004, 3:53 am

Sirrowsalot-- A 60 pound man would get a 48 second adjustment compared to Eskild and about an 82 second adjustment with respect to Matthias. Yes indeed, I think it would be quite an extraordinary accomplishment for a 60 pound man to row, say, 6:50, or even 7:00. Do you know of one? Your 10 minute figure shows that you are not giving these things even a moment's thought. The accomplishments in the different age groups are similar in some respects and different in others. The training is somewhat different. The things that have to be confronted are somewhat different. What leads to accomplishment is somewhat different, too (as I explained in my note about Dwayne. Did you read the thread?). If Graham rows 5:47 when he 40, then he will indeed accomplish what Dwayne might (?) accomplish. But some of those things are pretty different from what Graham has faced to this point. Sure, I suppose if we had a good measure of "athletic ability" we could also adjust for that to make the races "fairer." Do you have such a measure? Any suggestion would have to have a reasonable foundation and be easy to determine, monitor, and so forth, like standing on a scale or recording age. This distinction might lead to major leagues vs. minor leagues etc., which is indeed done in many sports to make them more (evenly) competitive. On this point, Graham seems to be saying that he has much _more_ athletic ability than he is realizing at the moment, so on that measure Dwayne should be given _another_ adjustment. He is realizing more of his potential. Clearly, this concern is pretty well neutralized for those who now the best in their divisions (say, worldwide). In most cases, those who are competing at the top in their respective sports have pretty similar ability. World records track something like human potential at the moment (given existent knowledge, technique, equipment, methods of training, race conditions, nutrition, lifestyle, etc.). ranger

[old] Mike H · Post by **[old] Mike H** » May 28th, 2004, 4:07 am

Ranger, Please just accept threads as they are...if its a thread about who would be faster in a head to head race, then thats the question. If the question is will Graham be as fast as Dwayne when he´s 39, then thats the question. You seem to enjoy trying to annoy other people!

[old] Graham Benton · Post by **[old] Graham Benton** » May 28th, 2004, 6:41 am

I have no desire to compare myself this precisely to Dwayne, but I do have a desire to respond to most things that ranger says. I can't believe that ranger has managed to turn the fact that I claim to have much more athletic performance than I am realising into a negative! What is actually means is that I am probably as far from reaching my peak as ranger claims Dwayne is past his. My belief is that for endurance and strength endurance events, the peak is mid to upper mid 30's. You could compare myself and Dwayne in 20 different ways and get 20 different results. eg. Dwayne is a former bodybuilding champion, I am a relative stick insect yet my 500m time is quicker than his, my max pull is lower and my racing starts are much quicker. All things that should suit his background. At the other end of the scale, my half marathon time is quicker as well. Yet, he is older than me but fairly comfortably quicker over 2k which is an achievement. None of these stats is the be all and end all as to look at any of these factors in isolation creates an unfair comparison. Dwayne is a tremendous athlete - compared to his age group peers he is out of this world. Compared to me he compares slightly favourably in terms of 2K time. Compared to Rob Waddell he has some way to go. No comparison is ever 100% fair but they are still valid comparisons.

[old] Sirrowsalot · Post by **[old] Sirrowsalot** » May 28th, 2004, 9:50 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ranger @ May 28 2004, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> A 60 pound man would get a 48 second adjustment compared to Eskild and about an 82 second adjustment with respect to Matthias. Yes indeed, I think it would be quite an extraordinary accomplishment for a 60 pound man to row, say, 6:50, or even 7:00. Do you know of one? Your 10 minute figure shows that you are not giving these things even a moment's thought.  </td></tr></table> Ha-I think what it actually means is that my "adjustment calculator" is not as finely tuned as yours, my apologies. This is for the most part what I expected you to say, if perhaps only to justify your own accomplishments. So no doubt you believe that winning the Little League World Series is equivalent to winning the World Series is equivalent to winning the Retired Players game-a very peculiar conception of accomplishment but one that is perhaps not entirely indefensible. I prefer to think that, for example, winning the 50's lightweight proves that you had the potential to accomplish a lot (winning the lightweight open for example in your prime), but that time has passed and real accomplishment is impossible because of physiological limitations (age or whatever), in the same way that a retired baseball player doesn't win much recognition for winning the retired players game. Just my opinion though. I'm curious about your response to the baseball example.

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