Battle Of The Giants

[old] kamdo · Post by **[old] kamdo** » May 27th, 2004, 11:19 am

Dwayne has gone well over 700,000 meters so far this season and has posted some incredible times to date; just get on the nonathlon site to check them out. I am personally amazed that one can perform at such a high level quality wise, yet still crank out nearly 25 - 30,000 meters/day. That type of quality and quantity, in my opinion, is not sustainable for any length of time, and will lead to breakdown. I certainly hope that doesn't happen, but it seems inevitable. Kevin

[old] Andrew Burrows · Post by **[old] Andrew Burrows** » May 27th, 2004, 11:36 am

Try and tell Matthew Pinsent he has been slowing down for years . I dont think the decline starts at 30, Ive never seen any evidence of it! I dont know who will win as Ive never watched Dwayne erg but I would travel round the other side of the world to see it! I have voted though, you can guess who for .

[old] Janice · Post by **[old] Janice** » May 27th, 2004, 12:09 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Canoeist @ May 27 2004, 05:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> At BIRC, that could be a different story. Dwayne has 8 hours of time zone change, change of diet, and travel stress to overcome.  </td></tr></table> Having flown for 9+ hours recently and driving another 8 to get to a comp (Seattle to Stranraer), I will say that one can overcome it. Perhaps it is far more difficult when one rows at Dwayne's level, but it can be done. What worked for me was gradually waking up earlier and sleeping nearly the whole time on the plane. Certainly if little ol 7:40 me can over come the time difference, big strong Dwayne can as well

[old] Sirrowsalot · Post by **[old] Sirrowsalot** » May 27th, 2004, 12:49 pm

Ranger, once again you have demonstrated that you are the only person concerned with age classifications and the only one believes that direct comparisons between the age groups (no matter how close) are "unfair." I assume this is because you feel that your own accomplishments will be threatened if people start comparing times across age classes without your own special "adjustments." I cite for evidence your indignant responses on the UK forum when a rower with similar times to you, though in a different age or weight group, attempts to compare times with you and you inform him that such comparisons are inappropriate. Dwayne is perfectly willing to compete without your "adjustments", as is Graham. As I've said many times before, age is a completely arbitrary factor for which to adjust for-things like height, weight, time for training, VO2 max, capillary density, etc., are often just out of our control, and who said we had to adjust away physical talent in the first place? Graham and Dwayne are both exceptional athletes, who because of some combination of their height, weight, physical talent, training methods, etc., have similar times. Why shouldn't they compare? The image of you entering a competition, losing, then pulling out your "adjustment calculator" to prove that you not only won, but crushed the competition by twenty seconds, is indeed an amusing one

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 27th, 2004, 1:15 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (kamdo @ May 27 2004, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> That type of quality and quantity, in my opinion, is not sustainable for any length of time, and will lead to breakdown. I certainly hope that doesn't happen, but it seems inevitable. Kevin  </td></tr></table> Dwayne has a history of injury keeping him from participating in or finishing races. Some, including myself, think it's from repetitive overtraining. I truly hope he stays injury free as I'd love to see them compete against each other when 100% heathly. Great post Sirrowsalot. The only thing I would add is that the lightweight heavyweight division is completely an arbritary one and as such all lightweight records are soley based on where that division happens to be placed. Move it a few pounds either way and there's a good chance you have a new world record holder. I hadn't realized Graham was a "beginner" and had been doing so little structured work until his post. Now that he's explained he's now following a plan, I would have to vote for him to win a future race. If they raced today my vote would be for Dewayne based on his current times. Graham hasn't posted anytimes that I'm aware of, so he might be in shape, but what Dewayne has done and posted is very impressive. Whenever the race, my hope is for Dewayne to win, because I want the old guy to beat the young guy.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 27th, 2004, 1:43 pm

Who is Dewayne? Geesh why would anyone think comparing a 22 y/o to a 53 y/o athletically would be a "fair" or even comparison. Wait till whoever said that gets in their 50's and tries to row or run times they did easily some 30 years before that. There is no comparison. People get older. We all get slower with time and eventually everyone dies. That's just how it is.

[old] kamdo · Post by **[old] kamdo** » May 27th, 2004, 2:23 pm

Age groupings are irrelevant. In any other endurance sport and all team sports that I can think of, age makes no difference. Jay Haas, the exceptional 50 year old golfer is competing better on the PGA tour now than in his 30's. How about Randy Johnson's recent perfect game at age 40 (or is he 41?)? One of the best big race competitive marathoners was 37 when he won the Olympic marathon in 1984 (Carlos Lopes)...I doubt his competitors who were in their mid-20's were hoping his time wouldn't count because it wasn't in their age group. Head to head competition between the best...that's what sports is all about. Kevin

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » May 27th, 2004, 3:37 pm

He had just turned 35... <a href='http://www.row2k.com/stories/Siejkowski2002.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.row2k.com/stories/Siejkowski ... /a> - Paul Smith

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 27th, 2004, 4:01 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ May 27 2004, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Who is Dewayne? Geesh why would anyone think comparing a 22 y/o to a 53 y/o athletically would be a "fair" or even comparison.  </td></tr></table> John, Dewayne is a good friend of mine and when I typed my earlier message I automatically typed that. Thanks, John, for pointed out my error. I have corrected it. Now my turn...who's made comparisons between 22 and 53 year olds and where did they do that is this thread? And as a side note, my 19 year old son and I constantly compare our times. Kamdo, Most endurance sports, swimming, running, cycling, water rowing have age groupings. Tennis also has age groups and golf has the old guys tour. Most sports like soccer, softball, basketball also have age groups, typically 35/40/45+ and older kind of divisions.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 27th, 2004, 4:29 pm

Graham-- I am in no way suggesting that your accomplishments are run of the mill. I am not discrediting you; I am just crediting Dwayne. If the question is a fair competition, then apples do indeed need to be compared to apples, oranges to oranges. Take the lightweight world record holders. What does it say that Mike Caviston can beat me? Or that Eskild Ebbesson can beat Mike? Nothing! The comparison is between apples and oranges. It will indeed be interesting to see what Eskild rows when he is 40 and Mike rows when he is 50. But is not a fair race to pit Eskild against Mike, or Mike against me, at the same point in time. The average decline with age is about a second a year. You are right about everything you claim about your background relative to your achievement. And given this, you should amaze all of us over the next few years. If you do, your competition is not Dwayne, though; it is Siejkowski! Run him down! Go after the world record! If you can do 5:50 with no training and no background, and as others are claiming, there is indeed very little decline from 30 to 40, then you should have plenty of time to do better than 5:38 when you are still in your 30s. If you are an apple, compare yourself to the other apples! Don't go dragging oranges into the discussion. In your attempts to get better, I wish you all the luck in the world, and I don't intend to underestimate your potential at all. The credit that a 40-year-old rower should get, though, is this: A 40-year-old rower must maintain a high level of fitness, personal discipline, and motivation years and years after their natural peak in physical potential. They must avoid bouts of staleness. They must overcome inevitable injuries. They must row day after day after day after day, despite their other life commitments and distractions. They must continue to work on technique and mental toughness. Yes, you are doing wonderfully given your slight familiarity with the sport. But you have yet to show that you can do any of these other things that Dwayne has obviously done. Regardless of what you want to claim, IMHO, rowing 5:47 at 40 is a heck of different enterprise than rowing 5:52 at 30. If you don't think so, then just do it and prove me wrong. I am happy to be here ten years of now to see you do it. But saying that you can do it is not doing it. Everyone is getting on Dwayne for not delivering in major competitions. But I think Dwayne will be able to deliver on his claims in this respect much more easily that you will be able to deliver on the claim that you will be able to row 5:47 (or whatever) at 40. 10 years is a long time. This is an inevitability: Over the course of a decade, s...t happens. Think what you want, but I think that rowing 5:48 at 40 is something like rowing 5:38 at 30. The times are different but the accomplishment, IMHO, is about the same. Best, ranger

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 27th, 2004, 4:36 pm

Rogus, Someone, not you, was attempting to make a comparison. Kamdo, After the Olympics, Carlos Lopes broke the WR at age 38. He was quite exceptional. However, that was at age 38, not age 53, as Ranger is. The WR for the mile is 3:43. There are hundreds of runners, who have run less than 4:00 or the equivalent, maybe thousands. But only 1 or 2 over the age of 40. And no one even close to 4:00 over the age of 50. I doubt that an age 60 year old has bettered 4:20 for the mile. And certainly no one over the age of 70 has bettered a 4:30 for the mile. Carrying this out farther, there is probably no 90+ year old who has bettered a 5:00 mile. If you know of someone who has, please do tell. Or even 6:00 at age 90. Hmm how about 7:00. Or 8:00 at age 90? Now here, we are talking about only ONE person being able to do these things, not hundreds or thousands.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 27th, 2004, 4:38 pm

Can a double post be removed here.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 27th, 2004, 4:46 pm

Rogus-- Sure, times can be compared, regardless of age. But I don't think that this is the intention of Sir Pirate's "poll." His intention, I think, is exactly to compare Dwayne and Graham as though a heads up race is, just that, heads up--i.e., something that might have a significant outcome, etc., in the sense of having a bearing on who is the "better" rower (or whatever). Your comparisons with your son are even more off the point. If the race were the best 19-year-old heavyweight and the best 53-year-old heavyweight, the outcome would be no contest. The difference in the world records in these divisions at the moment is about half a minute; therefore the outcome of the race would have no bearing at all on the relative accomplishments of the racers (or whatever). Best, ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 27th, 2004, 5:01 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Age groupings are irrelevant. In any other endurance sport and all team sports that I can think of, age makes no difference  </td></tr></table> Kamdo-- Amazing claim. You mean if we suited up MLB, MLS, the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL just with players over 40 the achievements in the sport would be the same? Hardly. Swimming, track, etc., would be similarly transformed. An Olympics composed of only athletes over 40 would be a different affair entirely. (In fact, we already have this. It is called "the Senior Olympics.") ranger

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 27th, 2004, 5:03 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ranger @ May 27 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Rogus-- Sure, times can be compared, regardless of age. But I don't think that this is the intention of Sir Pirate's "poll." His intention, I think, is exactly to compare Dwayne and Graham as though a heads up race is, just that, heads up--i.e., something that might have a significant outcome, etc., in the sense of having a bearing on who is the "better" rower (or whatever). Your comparisons with your son are even more off the point. If the race were the best 19-year-old heavyweight and the best 53-year-old heavyweight, the outcome would be no contest. The difference in the world records in these divisions at the moment is about half a minute; therefore the outcome of the race would have no bearing at all on the relative accomplishments of the racers (or whatever). Best, ranger  </td></tr></table> I think Sir Pirate was asking who we think would win a race between Dwayne and Graham. It's a fair question that doesn't need to be muddled by arguing about age, adjustments or any other bull. If they race, it doesn't show who the better "rower" is, but who's the fastest that day for that race. Using your terminology, Dewayne isn't an orange. We're talking fellow ergers here. Dwayne is just an older apple. You are trying to use age as an argument to turn older ergers into something completedly different from younger ergers? Anyone can race anyone else they want to and it's just two or more going at it. Just because my son and I compete with each other, doesn't mean it's not a fair race because he isn't the fastest 19 year old and I'm not the fastest 50 year old. Forget the world record comparisons, the age/weight adjustments. It's just two athletes competing and having some fun trying to be faster than the other.

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