Technique

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 29th, 2004, 6:03 am

1/ How many holes do you have showing on the footplate? --- How tall are you and your shoe size --- Have you changed and why 2/ Where do you draw the handle to on your body and why? ---Is your hand position at the catch lower than the finish 3/ Are your legs completlly straight at the end of the drive? 4/ Would you say you have a significant back lean at the end of the drive? --- If so then to what purpose (eg xtra length or more power) - George __________________________________________ 1/ I have started to use 3 holes showing today and used to use 2, I am 6'6" and size 11 shoes. I have changed because I think it takes some pressure of the back of my legs on the seat and allows me to straighten my legs more (or seems to). 2/ The handle is drawn to about my solar plexis region about midway between belly button and sturnum. My hands do drop on the recovery and I dont think this is a good thing but not sure (it does not feel unnatural) 3/ I am conciously trying to ensure full use of my legs but struggle when I am rating 30+. In my first comp people who knew pointed this out to me and a slow inmprovment has I believe improved my efforts as I now finish my strokes more effectively 4/ I have little upper body moement and any back lean has to be a concious effort at the end of the stroke (this was noted also when I was racing) I find that with a greater lean I struggle to get the spm rate up - George

[old] Pete Marston · Post by **[old] Pete Marston** » May 29th, 2004, 6:25 am

1) I have 2 holes showing on the foot plate. I tried experimenting a year or so ago with 3 holes but found it shortened my stroke at the front end and I didn't like it. I think it's ok for taller people like you to have the feet higher and it doesn't matter if you lose a little off the front of the stroke, and you likely have longer arms than me so maybe you hit the fan cage anyway sometimes? 2) I tend to draw the handle quite high, just below nipple level. I find this the most comfortable, and the best compromise for power and speed. 3) Very nearly completely straight, but not actually locked out at the knees. 4) This varies, the longer the distance, the more the back lean. In other words, the lower the spm, the more the back lean. My back lean tends to get continuously more during a 2k as well as I tire and make up for the reducing peak power with a slightly increased stroke length. Pete

[old] Xavier · Post by **[old] Xavier** » May 29th, 2004, 7:26 am

1/ How many holes do you have showing on the footplate? 2 holes showing, 3 when I'm not wearing any shoes. 5'11 and a bit (just not 6'), with size 13 feet! 2/ Where do you draw the handle to on your body and why? HR monitor. Helps if you've been in a boat, because you need to have room to extract the oar from the water. 3/ Are your legs completely straight at the end of the drive? Not sure - hopefully yes, but there's no mirror in front of the ergs at the gym I go to. 4/ Would you say you have a significant back lean at the end of the drive? Not particularly - you tend to draw up too high otherwise at the end of the stroke. Xav

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 29th, 2004, 1:22 pm

George-- My answers to your questions are Pete's. I would add this, though. The questions that you are asking about technique, I think, are pretty peripheral. The most important things about technique, I think, are (1) timing/sequencing, (2) ratio, (3) body positioning in the recovery and at the catch, and (4) foot positioning (i.e., balls of feet, heels, etc.) as you move through the catch and drive to the finish. These things determine the application of force--when, by what, and (proportionally) how much. In particular, these things determine the flow of energy in the rowing stroke--what is coordinated with what and for how long in the continuous connection you make between handle and footplate. An important mechanical factor that interacts with this technical application of force, of course, is drag. ranger

[old] Charles Carroll · Post by **[old] Charles Carroll** » May 29th, 2004, 1:51 pm

George, If it is at all possible, try to get on- water in a racing shell. You will find the answer, or answers, to every question you have raised once you understand sculling. Good luck, charles

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 29th, 2004, 2:04 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Charles Carroll @ May 29 2004, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> You will find the answer, or answers, to every question you have raised once you understand sculling.  </td></tr></table> Some techniques that makes you faster on the erg or at least doesn't slow you down, would never work rowing on water. If George's questions were to try to find out what others are doing to get some idea of what might make him faster on the erg then knowing what works on water may not be of any help to him.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 29th, 2004, 4:00 pm

1- Mid position on model B. Just under 5'9, size 9. I used to have the foot plates at the highest for more leg drive, but have recently lowered them to get more rotation at the hips. I tried the lowest position -- there are only 3 positions on the model B -- but the mid position feels best. 2- The handle comes to mid sternum, just below the heart rate monitor. Hand position is the same at the catch and the finish. 3- Legs are not completely straight at the end of the drive. They could be, but the distance would be the same and recovery would take longer. 4- There is no significant back lean at the finish. I prefer keeping rhythm and timing, and being in a good position for recovery. I feel additional back lean doesn't contribute any significant additional length to the stroke, compared to distance gained at the front, and especially keeping the rhythm of the stroke.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 29th, 2004, 5:57 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (ranger @ May 30 2004, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I would add this, though. The questions that you are asking about technique, I think, are pretty peripheral.  </td></tr></table> Ranger, I cant agree completely with your statement Ranger as the bio-mechanics of the stroke, the positioning and the movement of your hands arms legs and body are fundamental to the stroke I would have thought at least in my opinion. While in an endurance phase of low rating and focusing on developing my technique to ensure that later I am well balanced, I would have assumed that now was the time to focus on some of these details and what better way than to learn from the wisdom of my peers and betters. Having said that I was also just curious about other peoples experiences as all knowledge is good if used wisely and kept in pespective. (And I was making conversation with friends) Rogus' your comment is one that is very valid and I know one that Pete M has made before on the boards and that is water rowing and erging while similar in some aspects are not the same and the difference in technique required to go fast is different enough that to try and emulate an 'on the water action' on an erg I think would be a negative and visa versa .. (cant speak form experience only from discussions with people that have done both) ... again that is not to say that the experience would not be valuable - George

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 29th, 2004, 6:20 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (GeorgeD @ May 29 2004, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> ...the positioning and the movement of your hands arms legs and body are fundamental to the stroke...  </td></tr></table> George, They are the stroke and are all connected in the application of effort throughout the stroke. I've done a good amount of on water rowing, both sweep and scull, and erging. While the basic stroke is similar in both activities, the erg allows all kinds of technique variations that don't effect your speed and sometimes even help it. Many of these technique variations are improper form in a boat. The balance to keep on keel and smoothness that is so important in the boat is of little importance on the erg if you're solely going for fast erg times in the 2K. Smoothness and efficiency on the erg become more important at longer distances. I find the more I erg the faster my erg times get and the "sloppier" my on water form becomes. I actually have to really concentrate if I want to maintain proper on water form while on the erg.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 30th, 2004, 1:01 am

I think another area I need to concentrate on is sitting tall thru-out, I feel much more powerful in this position and it keeps me alert. To easy to slouch to gain reach at the catch which is non productive. I have also found that the desire to make full use of the legs was leading to want to see them virtually 'locked out' at the end and I dont think this was productive as well (but no leaving them short either) Another aspect may well be that I appear to be more of an upper body rower than a leg man, and while this does not preclude the necessity for me to involve my legs more and benefit form that, I need to be comfortable with what I am and not try and 'force' change that is not atuned to my physical makeup ... does that make sense. - George

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 30th, 2004, 2:24 am

George, Looks to me that Ranger has it right on, so what are you disagreeing with.

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 30th, 2004, 4:01 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ May 30 2004, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>George, Looks to me that Ranger has it right on, so what are you disagreeing with. </td></tr></table> I disagree with the comment that the questions I asked were peripheral and by inference relativley unimportant, and still disagree. Maybe they were to him and if that was the case his first line aswer would have been sufficient. The other issues he raised are important (no disagreement there) but that was not the question I asked and it would be nice if he answered what I thought were simple questions to answer and allow me to draw my own conclusions. His answer implied that I didn't know what I should be asking and then he presumed to tell me what he thought I should be told rather than what I asked. Hope that answers your question. - George

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 30th, 2004, 4:21 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I cant agree completely with your statement Ranger as the bio-mechanics of the stroke, the positioning and the movement of your hands arms legs and body are fundamental to the stroke I would have thought at least in my opinion. While in an endurance phase of low rating and focusing on developing my technique to ensure that later I am well balanced, I would have assumed that now was the time to focus on some of these details and what better way than to learn from the wisdom of my peers and betters.  </td></tr></table> Yikes. My comment was intended as help. Take it or leave it. Sure, the technical things that you mention can be fiddled with, but they are not very central to the basic force applied in the stroke. I repeat: IMHO, force in the stroke is basically a matter of timing, ratio, contact on the footplate, body positioning, and drag. It is also clear that these things are (1) _very_ hard to get right and (2) can transform the flow of energy in the stroke and therefore the quality of the performance. So anyone seriously interested in working on technique should work on them _constantly_. It is good that you seem to be aware of these things, though. Saying that you are "not much of a leg man," etc., refers to what I am mentioning. If you want to maximize your potential in rowing, you cannot be just an upper body rower, especially if you are 6'6". Properly executed, the first and strongest impulse in the stroke is with the legs; therefore, the legs are crucial to both force applied and timing. Because the legs are so strong and because the whole rowing motion (the slide, etc.) is designed to maximize their use, proper use of the legs is also central to what drag can be used. If you slight your legs, you can make up for this (on the erg) by raising the drag, but for the best rowers, there seems to be a significant loss when this is done. As the drag is raised, the ratio of the stroke is altered and the proportion of work to rest in the stroke changes. A high drag also impedes the full use of the arms because of the additional load. Proper use of the legs also determines both body positioning and the forces generated in the suspension of the body on the handle at the catch and therefore the timing and contribution of the back and the nature and sequencing of action with the feet at the footplate. I don't know about you, but I work on these things every day. By the way, this is intended as conversation among friends. Best, ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » May 30th, 2004, 4:34 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The other issues he raised are important (no disagreement there) but that was not the question I asked and it would be nice if he answered what I thought were simple questions to answer and allow me to draw my own conclusions </td></tr></table> Geroge-- Many apologies, if they are still in order. I did anwer your questions. I said that my answers were the same as Pete's. The rest of my note was just meant to help. The intent was serious and friendly. I am entirely willing to respect our differences of opinion, and I assume that you are, too. I repeat: IMHO, you can change handle height, backward lean, footholes showing in the stetcher and such like all day long, but these adjustments will have a relatively insignificant effect on your performance because they aren't very central to the major application of force in the rowing stroke. This is a serious issue for your time and energy, because you seem to be interested in fiddling with these things to get some sort of advantage. The intent of my note was just to suggest that the time and energy you devote to technique could be better spent otherwise. ranger

[old] GeorgeD · Post by **[old] GeorgeD** » May 30th, 2004, 4:37 am

Sorry Rich, I know you are in your own way just trying to help, and you are very passionate about helping people and I respect that aspect .... but I wasnt intrerested in, as you say 'the basic force applied in the stroke', I was just curious about a couple of issues that are not really issues Having a bad day here and took it out on you so 'I am sorry'. BUT HELL MAN YOU ARE SO FRUSTRATING you have so much to offer and you express so many of the 'technical' aspects so well that I really enjoy reading your answers and have learned much from them. I would go so far as saying I would love to read a 'definitive' peice on your views as to the mechanics of a good stroke and your philosy on training, as I would like to read GB's and DA's and others (you to Rogus ) ... but you scatter the gems of wisdom at sometimes inappropriate times and places and it seems a waste. - George

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