wolverine plan, anyone?

[hjs]

Looking at this and the Pete Plan particular the beginner PP. I feel there is an absence of short hard rep sets.... say something like the 30/30 embedded in the PM (or perhaps longer rest. And as an older rower this is an aspect of training that is important...

Thoughts

Those plans are for 2k, shorter faster work is not needed.

thanks for your thoughts

Sorry I am not looking for an argument.... But

Well, I disagree.... I coached swimming for years and distance swimmers would participate in sprint work .... including Alactate sprints (<8secs).... Middle distance, 5k 10k etc runners would also include sprint work. There is a body of thought that argues that as on ages sprint/power work is even more vital

Feel free to argue

2k is 6/8 min of wirk, so speed is not so high. Distance swimmers often finish together, so you need a fast last bit.

For general health, keeping your fast fibers alive is certainly important, but the plans are again not aimed at health, its about 2k racing... You need some speed, but speed is almost never the limiting factor, its aerobic fitness that brings the most.

[bob01]

Hi.... Hope all is well

Most distance swimming events are swam fairly even paced perhaps with a slight negative split.... Ok running if there is a close finish it is won with the faster sprint.

I believe that improving power is (in an endurance event) a route to faster time. As there is a continuum of energy systems involved with all (but very short or long) distances... one does not just use the endurance pathway in an endurance event...Also Sprinters would do some endurance work

No, power work for the older athlete is not just about health. There is a body of evidence that demonstrates that power work, including weights, reduces the affect of age in endurance events... look at Friels writings on this

[hjs]

Hi.... Hope all is well

Most distance swimming events are swam fairly even paced perhaps with a slight negative split.... Ok running if there is a close finish it is won with the faster sprint.

I believe that improving power is (in an endurance event) a route to faster time. As there is a continuum of energy systems involved with all (but very short or long) distances... one does not just use the endurance pathway in an endurance event...Also Sprinters would do some endurance work

No, power work for the older athlete is not just about health. There is a body of evidence that demonstrates that power work, including weights, reduces the affect of age in endurance events... look at Friels writings on this

Rowers certainly work on power, 90% of training is low rate strong strokes, but it needs to be aerobic. The guys who really train for speed 500m and below have zero chance at 2k races.

Closer to racing season race speed is needed and done, but 6 weeks is often enough, working longer on it will influence aerobic fitness in a bad way. The really fast guys, around 5.40 are not super strong or fast but have monster engines. They row 1.45 rate 20 all day long. The more crossfit type guys, are stronger anf faster, pull better 500 meters and below, but stall around 6.00...

[JerekKruger]

Distance swimmers often finish together, so you need a fast last bit.

To be fair it's not all that uncommon for boats to finish close and for races to be decided by a sprint. That said I'm not sure that training the alactic energy system is of much help here however as it would likely be exhausted by the end of a race (it's still used even when intensity is below max).

Fritz Hagerman didn't think training it was very important for rowers (Training the Energy Systems):

Because of only a limited contribution of this system to rowing and because it is used most effectively during the first few seconds of any exercise, it is not necessary to devote much of your training time, if any, to the improvement of this system. Our earlier research indicated that this system contributes less than 5% of the energy needed to row a highly competitive 2000m race.

[hjs]

Distance swimmers often finish together, so you need a fast last bit.

To be fair it's not all that uncommon for boats to finish close and for races to be decided by a sprint. That said I'm not sure that training the alactic energy system is of much help here however as it would likely be exhausted by the end of a race (it's still used even when intensity is below max).

Fritz Hagerman didn't think training it was very important for rowers (Training the Energy Systems):

Because of only a limited contribution of this system to rowing and because it is used most effectively during the first few seconds of any exercise, it is not necessary to devote much of your training time, if any, to the improvement of this system. Our earlier research indicated that this system contributes less than 5% of the energy needed to row a highly competitive 2000m race.

Big difference is, rowers are one lane, swimmers are close together, look at olympic 10/25k events. Wc. It often a group and a sprint, behind an other you have draft.

1500 meter indoor in lanes,.... No draft and seldom sprints...

[JerekKruger]

Big difference is, rowers are one lane, swimmers are close together, look at olympic 10/25k events. Wc. It often a group and a sprint, behind an other you have draft.

Today I learnt there are longer distance swimming events at the Olympics I genuinely didn't realise there was a 10km event. I can see how that would make a difference yes.

There is a body of evidence that demonstrates that power work, including weights, reduces the affect of age in endurance events... look at Friels writings on this

To be fair Pete isn't a professional coach or sports scientist and is still fairly young himself, so if this is true it's not all that surprising that it wouldn't be present in Pete's plans.

[hjs]

Big difference is, rowers are one lane, swimmers are close together, look at olympic 10/25k events. Wc. It often a group and a sprint, behind an other you have draft.

Today I learnt there are longer distance swimming events at the Olympics I genuinely didn't realise there was a 10km event. I can see how that would make a difference yes.

we won the last 2 so I knew both sprints. Which I don,t like, bit like cycling with a peleton sprint...... Boring.....

[JerekKruger]

... bit like cycling with a peleton sprint...... Boring.....

My fellow (half-)countryman Eddy didn't rely on such techniques!

[hjs]

... bit like cycling with a peleton sprint...... Boring.....

My fellow (half-)countryman Eddy didn't rely on such techniques!

Time trialing or uphill you don,t need to

[JerekKruger]

Time trialing or uphill you don,t need to

He won the occasional plains stage as well

[bob01]

I was not criticizing The Wolverine plan or any of its derivatives... But trying to add to the debate surrounding them. I still feel there is a place for training all the energy systems varying on distance raced.

perhaps these plans were formulated in the period when LSD was the way to go... but from the link provided

'Comparative videotape, coaching evaluations, and metabolic data confirmed those rowers
performing intermittent high intensity training bouts rowed more efficiently at all exercise
intensities than those rowers who trained for longer time periods and at lower intensities,
especially as stroke rating and power output increased to beyond AT, including maximum
power output'.

[hjs]

I was not criticizing The Wolverine plan or any of its derivatives... But trying to add to the debate surrounding them. I still feel there is a place for training all the energy systems varying on distance raced.

perhaps these plans were formulated in the period when LSD was the way to go... but from the link provided

'Comparative videotape, coaching evaluations, and metabolic data confirmed those rowers
performing intermittent high intensity training bouts rowed more efficiently at all exercise
intensities than those rowers who trained for longer time periods and at lower intensities,
especially as stroke rating and power output increased to beyond AT, including maximum
power output'.

Those plans are far from LSD, just the opposite, the bulk of the work is pretty fast, so I would have a better look at them.
Nowadays rowers do a lot more low intensity work, thats certainly not LSD, rowing is all about a strong stroke.

The pete plan was for guys who had a lunchhour to train, certainly not for toprowers. The original, wolverine plan, was first made for a university team, it has a lot more volume, the bulk is L4 work. Thats far from LSD, its low rate, relative high power work. Based on a rowers 2k pb. During a season you start out around av 18 spm, and build towards 20, most don,t reach that. But again, this is also not used by a lot of rowers, as far as I know.

The 2k record is already for a long time 5.35/40, only a handfull of guys pulled sub 5.40, last 10 years rowers did not get faster.
The 500m record is also old. 1:10.5, on average sprinting times have improved. But the people doing so are not rowers, but are strenght/crossfit people.

[kcavorsi]

Did L4 today, 60', 1,110 strokes, 18.5spm, Ref pace 1:42

2500m warmup

182/184/186/188/186/184
Goal meters: 14,766
Actual meters rowed: 14,804

2500m cooldown


Felt very good. The more I focus on hitting my target stroke rates, the more the specified paces feels natural.

[bob01]

Hi.
I did not suggest that the plans were solely lsd. But rather questioning the absence of faster/power work. Trying to say that as the plans were old that may be the reason as there was a different philosophy then... Sports science has moved on!
Even the concept interactive 2 k plan has some power work and is based on a periodisation model

I am supplementing the BPP with power work..... I cycle a bit too

[hjs]

Hi.
I did not suggest that the plans were solely lsd. But rather questioning the absence of faster/power work. Trying to say that as the plans were old that may be the reason as there was a different philosophy then... Sports science has moved on!
Even the concept interactive 2 k plan has some power work and is based on a periodisation model

I am supplementing the BPP with power work..... I cycle a bit too

The pete plan is a sharpening plan, doing 2/3 rotations is about all is doable. It has no LSD work. Its 3 hard days and 3 recovery.
Wolverine is all about power endurance and volume, no periodisation, its start outs "easy" although it never is really easy. Bit depending on how many sessions one does, this is very demanding.

pete plan is most populair because its simple and people can do it together. Its a relative beginners plan. BPP is a getting to know the erg plan. Nothing more or less.

Wolverine is found to be to complicated, more or less only the inventor knows how to use it. I have seldom seen people using it.

Looking at the 2k record, sport science has not done much. Rowers have not been getting faster.......

Both plans, although its really only 1, the second is just a simpler, shorter version, are not representative for modern training.