Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

A member of an indoor rowing team or club? If so, this is the place for you.
Rod
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by Rod » May 17th, 2017, 3:53 am

Two Pudding Kid wrote: Rod - Brilliant results including a PB on the 60mins at 20spm – never thought that we would see you excel at that.
It wasn't a PB Susan (I didn't say it was... :wink: ), it was 2.2 seconds per 500 slower than the PB I set a few months ago and given that it's not a session I've done until this year it wasn't hard to set one lol!

My times for 20 spm sessions are very poor compared to other people so I don't think I can claim to ''excel'' at them! :lol:

Mike........the running is progressing nicely thanks, well it is at the longer stuff, 5miles and 10 miles but not yet broken the elusive 6 minutes for the mile and am 5 seconds slower than last years best attempt at it....but got until August so hope to get there. I have some 5k, 10k and 10 mile races coming up soon and confident of improving my times from last year as training has been going well.....it's at the cost of good erging though so hope its worth it. :?
67 year old, 72 kilo (159lbs), 5'8''/174cm (always the shortest on the podium!) male. Based just south of London.
Best rows as an over 60. One Hour.....16011 metres. 30 mins.....8215 metres. 100k 7hrs 14 mins.

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bisqeet
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by bisqeet » May 21st, 2017, 11:48 am

Lazy Week:
no training since last weeks 25km regatta in Italy.
- New Job, Had to go to Switzerland on Wednesday...
It's actually quite fun this work lark....

fun day even if it was a 5:00 start on the Ammersee
Some may have heard of the Andechs Abbey - famous for its beer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andechs_Abbey

I think you can guess what the refreshments after the race were ( I wasn't driving)

boat came with plenty of time - warm-up on the way to the start and a couple of mins at the start for final adjustments.
it was a rolling start with 1 min. intervals and a triangle course. Always nice for us river rats to get on a flat open lake with no upstream/downstream currents.
Water was calm, sun was warm - great rowing weather.
We were third fastest, but we only had a combined age of 179 (quad - coxwain doesnt count) - not much compared to the seniors with a combined age of 300 - actual placing with time bonus/penalties was #9
They use a bonus system overhere for the fun regattas - so older / female get a bonus time reduction (% of time is deducted based on gender/age).

Our time for the 6k was 24:41 with bonus 23:40...

Winners of the day was the boat with 3 ladies, combined age of 172: actual race time 25:12 - corrected time 21:51
Its a good idea makes things more exciting :)

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1746155867

race didint start until about 42:30 - - we just had to make our way to the start and prep until then:
Average 24 SPM ~ 9,3m/S
MAx Pulse 170 - so close to Max HR - great run - love the distance!

Next week another 6k OTW, hope to get in some training on the C2 as well as OTW
Dean
2020 Season: 196cm / 96kg : M51
Training Log - ʕʘ̅͜ʘ̅ʔ -Blog
~seven days without rowing makes one weak~

Rod
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by Rod » May 21st, 2017, 2:28 pm

I'm only doing one erg session a week at the moment while I'm concentrating on running....here's this weeks;

60 minutes at 20spm. Av Pace 2:05.5 14339m.

I thought it was a PB until I looked back in my diary afterwards and found it was a pesky 0.1 slower than my best from a few weeks ago! :o

Bugger it, If I'd realised I'd have got it for sure..oh well 2.1 faster than last week and should get a PB next week.

I upped the Drag Factor from 115 to 120 and found that helped...as did rowing in my new Bike shoes, the solid platform under the balls of my feet felt much better than the running shoes I have been using.
67 year old, 72 kilo (159lbs), 5'8''/174cm (always the shortest on the podium!) male. Based just south of London.
Best rows as an over 60. One Hour.....16011 metres. 30 mins.....8215 metres. 100k 7hrs 14 mins.

le grand fromage
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by le grand fromage » May 21st, 2017, 2:39 pm

5k for the Sub 7 monthly challenge to-day. Thought I'd give it a 'proper' go. Pleased with the outcome although fought the HD demon's early doors and needed to ease up through the middle part, did'nt think I'd make the target av pace of 325w with 300 to go as I'd seemed stuck on 323 av watts for an age but managed to find a couple of watts in the closing 300. Happy bunny afterwards

5k - 1:42.4 - 28 - 325 - 17:04.7

1k Splits
1:41.1 - 339w
1:43.6 - 315w
1:43.5 - 315w
1:43.3 - 318w
1:40.8 - 342w
2k - "into that void of silence where we cry without sound"

nick rockliff
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by nick rockliff » May 21st, 2017, 3:23 pm

le grand fromage wrote:5k for the Sub 7 monthly challenge to-day. Thought I'd give it a 'proper' go. Pleased with the outcome although fought the HD demon's early doors and needed to ease up through the middle part, did'nt think I'd make the target av pace of 325w with 300 to go as I'd seemed stuck on 323 av watts for an age but managed to find a couple of watts in the closing 300. Happy bunny afterwards

5k - 1:42.4 - 28 - 325 - 17:04.7

1k Splits
1:41.1 - 339w
1:43.6 - 315w
1:43.5 - 315w
1:43.3 - 318w
1:40.8 - 342w
Great 5k miles in front of me.
67 6' 4" 108kg
PBs 2k 6:16.4 5k 16:37.5 10k 34:35.5 30m 8727 60m 17059 HM 74:25.9 FM 2:43:48.8
50s PBs 2k 6.24.3 5k 16.55.4 6k 20.34.2 10k 35.19.0 30m 8633 60m 16685 HM 76.48.7
60s PBs 5k 17.51.2 10k 36.42.6 30m 8263 60m 16089 HM 79.16.6

le grand fromage
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by le grand fromage » May 21st, 2017, 4:04 pm

nick rockliff wrote:
le grand fromage wrote:5k for the Sub 7 monthly challenge to-day. Thought I'd give it a 'proper' go. Pleased with the outcome although fought the HD demon's early doors and needed to ease up through the middle part, did'nt think I'd make the target av pace of 325w with 300 to go as I'd seemed stuck on 323 av watts for an age but managed to find a couple of watts in the closing 300. Happy bunny afterwards

5k - 1:42.4 - 28 - 325 - 17:04.7

1k Splits
1:41.1 - 339w
1:43.6 - 315w
1:43.5 - 315w
1:43.3 - 318w
1:40.8 - 342w
Great 5k miles in front of me.
Cheers Nick, although I'm not 60 for another 10 months I thought I'd gone quicker than the 60s Hwt WR and I had! The 'old' one of 17:06.5, that I had noted previously. Checked online and Ian McNuff went 17:00.5 last month to set a new 60s WR. Still pleased as I know I wasn't fully prepped and feel there's a bit more I can do with the pace plan and I've still 10 months training time to play with.
2k - "into that void of silence where we cry without sound"

MPx
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by MPx » May 21st, 2017, 6:41 pm

Fantastic 5k on WR (designate) pace Richard.

Good that your 60@20 was back on track this week Rod after last weeks aberration. Also good to hear that the running is going well - pls let us know when that elusive 6m mile gets cracked!

Lots of time OTW Dean if not on the erg. Pleased for you that the job is working out....but even more pleased that I don't have such a distraction!

Really good 5k from you Susan - you're obviously quicker as a lightweight! Hope the HM went well (or at least better than the last one!) this w/e.

I've had a couple of poorer sessions in the last few days, but turned it around tonight.
Wednesday was a Dumbbell session and a 5k@20 in a time of 20:20 which was bang on target.
On Thursday I had no time so decided to do a 2k as its due on my plan next Tuesday and doesn't take long. Only lasted 500m on pace - simply had no fight. Backed off and in the end did 1k and 2x2k all at 2:00 pace.
Saturday I tried an AWL Pyramid. Again only maintained pace to 800 on the way up. Much slower for the 900 and coming back down. Poor really.
Tonight I thought I'd try a free rate 5k for the ITC. Was targeting 1:57 pace but in the end crept inside for a 19:20.6 @ 1:56.1. That's the fastest I've done a 5k this comeback so happy enough with that and nice to be heading back in the right direction! Thanks to Dimos for unblocking my account...
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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le grand fromage
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by le grand fromage » May 25th, 2017, 6:30 am

CTC for me to-day as I'm on holiday next week, a bit concerned with doing this month's 'full bore' as I've already had my HR up over 160+ twice this week so decided to just get it done rate capped at 20spm. That did the job, max HR was 120 so nice UT2 session :lol: Took a couple of intervals to get the cadence as it felt alien rowing at 20 spm for 30 secs but soon got the hang of it, just 10 strokes each go :D . Lowest av watts was 343 and highest av was 357w.

Scores on the doors

10 x 30 sec R 60 sec

5' - 1:40.0 - 20 - 1499 - 349 - SPI 17.45
2k - "into that void of silence where we cry without sound"

tbowles
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by tbowles » May 26th, 2017, 3:19 pm

My apologies if I'm nosing in, as I'm US-based and can clearly see the 'UK' in the topic here.

I'm posting to get a few opinions on learning how to think about pace in time-trial efforts.

I'm quite new to rowing (2 months), coming from a running background. I'm 48 (in a week or so) yr old male, 152lbs, so comfortably "LWT". I posted on another thread 6-7 weeks ago and got links to videos and ideas for workouts ... and a eye-opening (at the time) lesson in damper settings. As I said, I'm pretty new to this.

It does seem my aerobic conditioning has helped me get a decent headstart on things, but I still have so much to learn.

I keep blowing up in my time-trial efforts ... I even managed to blow up at a 500m (had to stop at 350m,as I'd started all out), not to mention 1000m, and 2000m.

To give a sense of where I'm at now: just this week, I did manage a 1:31.8 500m (ended at 1:38 pace, so dying big time) this week, as well as a 3:15.5 1000m (last 200m with all I had was 1:39, so dying again). And while I know I have a faster time in me, my 1 month old 2000m was 6:55 (I think I can pull a 6:45-50 now, but I'll need to prove that!).

My question is how all of you more experienced rowers have 'figured out' how to race ... I understand running pacing and understanding listening to my body, but I am embarrassed by my "DNFs" at such short TT efforts. I can't get over how comfortable a pace can feel for 500-600-700m and then all of the sudden the wheels just come off! Is this as simple as just 'slowing down' and trial-and-error, or are there some 'benchmark' workouts I should be doing to help with pacing?

Any tips at all would be appreciated!

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bisqeet
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by bisqeet » May 27th, 2017, 12:53 am

tbowles wrote:My apologies if I'm nosing in, as I'm US-based and can clearly see the 'UK' in the topic here.

I'm posting to get a few opinions on learning how to think about pace in time-trial efforts.

I'm quite new to rowing (2 months), coming from a running background. I'm 48 (in a week or so) yr old male, 152lbs, so comfortably "LWT". I posted on another thread 6-7 weeks ago and got links to videos and ideas for workouts ... and a eye-opening (at the time) lesson in damper settings. As I said, I'm pretty new to this.

It does seem my aerobic conditioning has helped me get a decent headstart on things, but I still have so much to learn.

I keep blowing up in my time-trial efforts ... I even managed to blow up at a 500m (had to stop at 350m,as I'd started all out), not to mention 1000m, and 2000m.

To give a sense of where I'm at now: just this week, I did manage a 1:31.8 500m (ended at 1:38 pace, so dying big time) this week, as well as a 3:15.5 1000m (last 200m with all I had was 1:39, so dying again). And while I know I have a faster time in me, my 1 month old 2000m was 6:55 (I think I can pull a 6:45-50 now, but I'll need to prove that!).

My question is how all of you more experienced rowers have 'figured out' how to race ... I understand running pacing and understanding listening to my body, but I am embarrassed by my "DNFs" at such short TT efforts. I can't get over how comfortable a pace can feel for 500-600-700m and then all of the sudden the wheels just come off! Is this as simple as just 'slowing down' and trial-and-error, or are there some 'benchmark' workouts I should be doing to help with pacing?

Any tips at all would be appreciated!
i'm definetly not the sprint expert here - short sprints for me are usually in the range of 5k.. I hate shorter stuff.

runners (non sprinters), lwt especially dont have a great deal of type 1 muscle (fast twitch) tending to concentrate on type 2/3 (slow twitch).
Its very difficult for someone to excel at an event they aren't built for :/
I'm guessing you simply don't have the muscle mass to be pulling huge watts, so you are having to rate up high to compensate.

somewhere along the line, you are going to have to decide - running or rowing.
your times show potential, but without gaining muscle mass (detrimental to running) I can't see you gaining much more improvement

the difference between a 6:55 2k and a 6:45 2k might only seem like 10 seconds - but in required watts is a different story - its about an increase in power output of about 30W or 10% more power / per stroke.

Rod may be able to give you some more advice, he seems to be able to switch between the two disciplines
Dean
2020 Season: 196cm / 96kg : M51
Training Log - ʕʘ̅͜ʘ̅ʔ -Blog
~seven days without rowing makes one weak~

Rod
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by Rod » May 27th, 2017, 3:03 am

tbowles wrote: I keep blowing up in my time-trial efforts ... I even managed to blow up at a 500m (had to stop at 350m,as I'd started all out), not to mention 1000m, and 2000m.

My question is how all of you more experienced rowers have 'figured out' how to race ... I understand running pacing and understanding listening to my body, but I am embarrassed by my "DNFs" at such short TT efforts. I can't get over how comfortable a pace can feel for 500-600-700m and then all of the sudden the wheels just come off! Is this as simple as just 'slowing down' and trial-and-error, or are there some 'benchmark' workouts I should be doing to help with pacing?

Any tips at all would be appreciated!
Sounds like you're starting too fast, you wouldn't do it in a running race so don't do it on the erg either!

Here's an article by a top coach (Mike Caviston if you want to look him up), hope it helps;


"Fly-and-die is just not a smart way to approach a race. It is usually employed by athletes who are inexperienced, who don’t have a realistic sense of their current abilities, or who allow themselves to be overwhelmed by the excitement of competition.
The physiological consequence is to accelerate the accumulation of fatiguing metabolic byproducts of intense muscular contraction (LACT, NH3, K+, etc.), resulting in severe discomfort and the inability to hold the desired pace

The idea that there are “free” strokes anywhere in a 2K is a common misconception among the rowing community. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of physics and thermodynamics should recognize this is impossible. Starting a race with several intense, sub-race-pace strokes will probably utilize the muscles’ ready supply of phosphagens (ATP & phosphocreatine).

Some people figure, what does it matter when I use my phosphagen stores? It’s anaerobic anyway, so I may as well use them at the start of the race to get a good position in the first 500m, rather than use them to sprint at the end. This thinking is incorrect. After a few seconds (when phosphagen stores are depleted) the muscles support intense contractions by rapidly breaking down glycogen into pyruvate. This rapid or “anaerobic” glycolysis results in the release of hydrogen ions (H+) that must be buffered, resulting in the formation of lactate, and the resulting decrease in muscle pH is a contributing factor to fatigue.

So far I’m sure everyone is nodding their head saying, “Uh-huh, I know that, so what?” The “so what” is that the rapidity of glycolysis is accelerated by the feed-forward signals resulting from the overly-intense, sub-race-pace strokes that start the race. In other words, if you plan to race at a 1:40 pace and take off at a 1:27 pace, your muscles don’t know that you intend to slow up in a few strokes. They immediately jump into action and rapidly break down glycogen to liberate as much immediate energy as possible, and the signal doesn’t immediately stop when you settle into your planned race pace.

The result is a much greater initial rise in lactate. Furthermore, phosphagen compounds help buffer decreasing muscle pH, so it is ill-advised to deplete them early. I don’t know about you, but racing for me is tough enough already without dragging the albatross of increased lactate accumulation into the second 500m, so I prefer to start more conservatively.
Now, some coaches will encourage a young/inexperienced athlete to start hard with the hope that they will discover some hidden gear and perform at a level they didn’t think was possible. Unfortunately, a likely result is the athlete will have such an unpleasant experience that they develop a mental block against racing hard, and it may be a long, long time before they reach their true potential.

The even-split approach to racing makes the most sense from a purely mechanical standpoint. Consider the hypothetical example of covering 2000m with an average pace of 1:36 either by holding a steady 1:36 pace for the entire distance, or covering half with a 1:35 pace and half with a 1:37 pace. Either method would result in a 6:24 2K, but because of the cubic relationship between velocity and power, and the proportionately greater energy cost of the 1:35 pace, more total energy is expended with the uneven pace. If an athlete is truly performing at maximum capacity, the less efficient pacing results in a slower time.

If you actually calculate the energy difference with this hypothetical example, you might be tempted to say the difference is pretty trivial, but I say even a fraction of a second is significant. And the greater the variation in pace during the race, the greater the amount of energy lost. So logically it must be concluded that the most effective race strategy would be to hold an even pace from start to finish.

But I don’t race that way. I prefer to start at a pace slower than my overall goal pace. But it’s also important to recognize that any strokes slower than your true potential represent lost time that can never be made up, no matter how fast you row later in the race. So you can’t take it too easy either, and that presents a real quandary. On the one hand, you risk going too hard and burning out too soon, and on the other you risk getting too far behind your optimal pace. It’s a fine line to tread, but with enough training and racing experience as well as a little common sense, I think anyone can create an effective race strategy.


I think the optimal pacing strategy for a 2K race is pretty close to:
800m (40%) @ GP +1; 600m (30%) @ GP; 400m (20%) @ GP – 1; and 200m (10%) @ GP – 2. [GP = Goal Pace, so to row 2K in 6:24, row the first 800m @ 1:37, the next 600m @ 1:36, the next 400m @ 1:35, and the final 200m @ 1:34.]"
67 year old, 72 kilo (159lbs), 5'8''/174cm (always the shortest on the podium!) male. Based just south of London.
Best rows as an over 60. One Hour.....16011 metres. 30 mins.....8215 metres. 100k 7hrs 14 mins.

tbowles
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by tbowles » May 27th, 2017, 9:15 am

Thank you Dean. Thank you Rod.

I think I was unduly influenced in my 'race strategy' by a video I watched on youtube from "rowingWOD.com" ... and watched him row a 6:29 (touching low 1:20's in the sprint start) while talking to the camera.

I say 'unduly influenced' because what you are both telling me SHOULD have been commonsense with my running background/experience, but I was kind of assuming 'new rules apply' in rowing.

Rod, the science part helped me a lot ... with my takeaway being that ultimately there is only so much gas in the tank (based on training up to this point), so flooring it up front doesn't make more gas! Instead I'm making for a truly agonizing experience (I've never DNFed any running race at any time, at any distance, ever) and actually wasting gas upfront.

Ok, so some time in the next week, I'm going to try to even-split a 2k hard effort. And with a smirk on my face, I take your commentary on wattage to be mostly a challenge: 1:41 will be my targeted split times. I need to put my stroke where my mouth is :-)

Cheers!

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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by bojam » May 28th, 2017, 3:23 pm

tbowles wrote:My apologies if I'm nosing in, as I'm US-based and can clearly see the 'UK' in the topic here.
Despite the topic title SUB-7 IRC is not UK only online club ... as Rod, Sue, Richard, Marjorie and everyone on Facebook would say. :)

Whether you post here or on FB you'll get loads of useful advice.

Toby

PS FB Link https://www.facebook.com/groups/2402882415/ and club web page http://www.gffl.myzen.co.uk/sub7/

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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by Rod » May 28th, 2017, 4:37 pm

Naughty me :o ...I missed my weekly Sunday morning row today because I did a 10 mile road running race, there were some steep hills on the course so happy with my time of 75:16. I was 53rd overall out of 226 in the race so happy with that too!

This afternoon was busy as well because I played Rugby! It was a 10 minutes each way game (during a 'fun' 7's tournament) of Carols re-uniting old teamates from her womens team of the 80's and 90's against some of the blokes that used to help coach them.

Turns out the womens team had a lot of the current younger players to help them out so they thrashed us...harrumpfff...oh well feet up now...with a big tub of Ice Cream! :D
67 year old, 72 kilo (159lbs), 5'8''/174cm (always the shortest on the podium!) male. Based just south of London.
Best rows as an over 60. One Hour.....16011 metres. 30 mins.....8215 metres. 100k 7hrs 14 mins.

MPx
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Re: Sub 7 Indoor Rowing Club (UK)

Post by MPx » May 28th, 2017, 7:33 pm

tbowles wrote: I'm posting to get a few opinions on learning how to think about pace in time-trial efforts.

I keep blowing up in my time-trial efforts ... I even managed to blow up at a 500m (had to stop at 350m,as I'd started all out), not to mention 1000m, and 2000m.

To give a sense of where I'm at now: just this week, I did manage a 1:31.8 500m (ended at 1:38 pace, so dying big time) this week, as well as a 3:15.5 1000m (last 200m with all I had was 1:39, so dying again). And while I know I have a faster time in me, my 1 month old 2000m was 6:55 (I think I can pull a 6:45-50 now, but I'll need to prove that!).

Any tips at all would be appreciated!
I believe its most widely agreed that even pace throughout is physically the easiest. Rod does a gradual negative split (getting faster throughout). I quite like the psychological lift of being a fraction under target pace for when it gets to hurt and I see some slower strokes on the PM. It stops me panicing! You're still very early in your training cycle so gains should still come quickly. Following plans from people like Rod (and Mike C's Wolverine plan and the PetePlan, etc) will maximise what you can do. I know they're right....but I don't do what they say. My way has worked for me for what I want to do, but I suspect it could be easily argued that I haven't maximised my potential as a result. Rod trains very methodically for specific goal. Different training depending on if its a 2k 5k 10k or whatever being targeted. His training informs what he can do and when he does the TT he knows from his training what the result will be. On a really bad day he'll miss it by a second or two - on a good day he might duck inside by a second. Its all very impressive. I train generically concentrating on the pieces I enjoy more and minimising the stuff I hate. As a result I don't target my training at any TT distance and have no idea how I'm going to do when I set off. I also find that my performance varies enormously. I've no idea if its biorhythms, sleep, psychology or whatever, but sometimes I can make myself do a TT at the pace I'm capable of, and other times I'm just way off my game. (That's true for training piece results as much as TTs) So for me its a much more random process - I decide to do a TT, I look at my best so far, I set off at a very slightly faster pace than my previous best avg. When new to a training cycle improvements come fast so more often than not the TT improves - but as I get further in say > 6 months in then there are many more fails. My fails aren't just a second or two off like Rods, but completely hopeless 15 or more seconds off. On the other hand on the good days, when I can do it, the new time is often more than a second or two better.

The only other experience I'd pass on is that I've done all of my best 500m (and particularly below) times with a fly and die technique. Trying to pick a pace and stick to it in the sprints has had slower results for me (ie either the pace is too slow, and/or I fly and die anyway!).

Just a different perspective - and definitely not recommended!
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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