how much do you use arms/upper back?

[Cyclingman1]

Are you thinking about posting the video?

[GJS]

I don't have much of a lean back. I sometimes experiment with additional lean but have never felt the benefit (a couple of splits) would outweigh the additional energy cost. This is principally during UT1/2 rows so my eye is always on HR.

However, I discovered earlier that with a more pronounced lay back at c. r 40 I was able to maintain 1:21/2 as opposed to 1:23 achieved with a more sprinty, truncated stroke at c. r46. In those circs the energy cost is pretty immaterial.

This study concludes:

Despite this, the greater relative increase on PO coupled with a significant improvement in the efficiency of stationary, submaximal rowing exercise when leaning back further at the finish and no suggested negative kinematic changes, we would advocate that the gains in power output outweigh the greater energy required.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3796848/

Don't really like the pronounced lay back, though. Feels pretty crude.

[Cyclist2]

My wife was able to record a side shot video of me at Ergomania, both early in the race, and the last minute. Very informative! I "discovered" that I'm not finishing the stroke with a sharp last arm/upper back squeeze. As a result, my knees bounce up before I start the recovery and my stroke is shorter. It's very pronounced when I'm about dead at the end, but even at the start it's noticeable. So these last two weeks I've been concentrating on finishing the stroke and holding my legs flat until my hands are away (just what we advise the newbies here, imagine that!) I'm doing this at both high and low SR, and especially at the end of my workouts when I'm tired and form gets a little sloppy anyway.

Regarding your question G-dub, it seems that layback on the erg, even watching the world class rowers, is exaggerated. It doesn't matter on an erg like it would in a boat, I guess, and they are reaching for every inch they can get. I think there is a break even point between not enough and too much. That last little arm/upper back finish is not very strong compared to the leg drive, so eking out another few inches at the finish may not be worth the energy it takes to pull yourself upright and back up the slide. Not enough layback, though, and the overall stroke is weaker.

I'd be interested to see that video, too. Can't get enough education/feedback/information.

[G-dub]

Ok - here is the vid. Jim is the one with 8' tall legs. I'm the one with the overly square back and mid section. My wife said "you don't bring the seat as close to your heels as some did and you are more upright"

https://youtu.be/89h8-EOLx-E

[Anth_F]

Ok - here is the vid. Jim is the one with 8' tall legs. I'm the one with the overly square back and mid section. My wife said "you don't bring the seat as close to your heels as some did and you are more upright"

https://youtu.be/89h8-EOLx-E

Besides what Paul mentioned!! I see not much lean back at all!! Little in the way of torso swing in the stroke... you don't really want to be bringing the seat too close to your heels anyway. The stroke does look short and a bit rushed on the recovery

Maybe things to work on in the future, Glenn. Your performances on the erg are still very good, but i think with a little work on technique which by the way is not horrific Could see your rates drop and some improvements in other areas too

[Cyclingman1]

Glenn, thanks for posting the video. Given our different builds there would have to be differences in the rowing.

One thing is that you have a slight pause at the end of the stroke and I seem to have none, yet your rate is about 2 spm faster than me. I think that is the difference in leg length. Takes me a lot of time to get up and down the slide. I had been experimenting with raising the foot stretcher the last couple of days and it shows. My knees are too high and I look uncomfortably overcompressed at catch. Got to lower foot stretcher - probably to no holes showing. I need to be quicker with my hands on the end of the drive and on recovery. My left lower leg seems to be doing something a little weird in the drive phase. I think my drag factor may be too high. I think I'm slow on pulling the handle down the slide. Some things to work on and see the effect on force curve.

OTOH, I think you looked crisp,controlled, and compact in your stroke. We look totally different at the catch. Look at gap between arms and legs. You have to be generating a good deal of power in your stroke as short as it is.

[G-dub]

Totally different Jim! What surprised me was that it feels more swingy than it clearly is. I think you are right about your compresssion at the catch. Worth seeing it I guess. i have a whole year to work on length I guess! But I will also always be short! I have one whole showing on the stretcher. I may drop it to none.

[hjs]

Ok - here is the vid. Jim is the one with 8' tall legs. I'm the one with the overly square back and mid section. My wife said "you don't bring the seat as close to your heels as some did and you are more upright"

https://youtu.be/89h8-EOLx-E

Besides what Paul mentioned!! I see not much lean back at all!! Little in the way of torso swing in the stroke... you don't really want to be bringing the seat too close to your heels anyway. The stroke does look short and a bit rushed on the recovery

Maybe things to work on in the future, Glenn. Your performances on the erg are still very good, but i think with a little work on technique which by the way is not horrific Could see your rates drop and some improvements in other areas too

Also what I see, zero backswing, its legs and arms that do the moving. Jim has More stroke and uses his back better.

From behind not really easy to see, proberly also a matter of build, more stocky rowers often keep the stroke more compact. A bit more layback could help, also in lowering the rate. I now get why you rate to heigh so easily, your torso dies not move much.

[GJS]

Dropping your feet may give you more room for compression at catch (where are your shins, currently, at catch?), Glenn, but runs the risk of increasing vertical force at the expense of horizontal to the detriment of pace.

Rather than setting your feet lower, have you considered your ankle dorsiflexion? hamstring flexibility?
Sometimes it's better to adjust the body than the boat.

Resting flat footed in deep squat is a decent test of ankle flexibility (and is great for hips too). The paleo crowd has hijacked the exercise a little but it remains a very worthwhile thing. The simple test of ankle flexibility described here will be a good indication:

https://posturemovementpain.com/2012/11 ... difficult/

[Anth_F]

Ok - here is the vid. Jim is the one with 8' tall legs. I'm the one with the overly square back and mid section. My wife said "you don't bring the seat as close to your heels as some did and you are more upright"

https://youtu.be/89h8-EOLx-E

Besides what Paul mentioned!! I see not much lean back at all!! Little in the way of torso swing in the stroke... you don't really want to be bringing the seat too close to your heels anyway. The stroke does look short and a bit rushed on the recovery

Maybe things to work on in the future, Glenn. Your performances on the erg are still very good, but i think with a little work on technique which by the way is not horrific Could see your rates drop and some improvements in other areas too

Also what I see, zero backswing, its legs and arms that do the moving. Jim has More stroke and uses his back better.

From behind not really easy to see, proberly also a matter of build, more stocky rowers often keep the stroke more compact. A bit more layback could help, also in lowering the rate. I now get why you rate to heigh so easily, your torso dies not move much.

I was actually going to mention that myself, Henry!! About the angle of the vid being shot from behind makes it not easy to see. But yes, more layback could help some.